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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9819 Posts

Posted - December 07 2018 :  1:14:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BatteryOaksBilly

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

Billy,

I sort of missed that comment until Little Bill highlighted it.

Yes sir, I've actually known quite a few people who could "out shoot" several autos when fired in the ransom rest.

The challenge seems to be that the main thing that makes an auto accurate is how the barrel consistently locks up into the slide (there can be some things in the frame that affect that).

The sights are on the slide (with exceptions for frame mounted optics or a couple of .22 target pistols from the past). So if the slide does not mate to the frame perfectly (and few do) then the rest, which holds the frame, is not as accurate as a really accurate shooter.

Just Ramblin'

Jim

Jim, I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear. I too have known people who could outshoot the old RR. But, I have known only 2 that could out shoot what the gun was capable of out of the box. Most folks can't get out the difference in accuracy a quality 1911 can give right from the box.



Yes Sir, I'd agree.

In fact when I asked Jeff Cooper what level of shooting it took to make "Master" he said: "A master shot is one that can shoot up to his gun." - there is a lot of thinking in that simple statement but I do assume he meant a quality gun

Jim H.

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BatteryOaksBilly
Junior Member

USA
211 Posts

Posted - December 10 2018 :  10:30:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by BatteryOaksBilly

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

Billy,

I sort of missed that comment until Little Bill highlighted it.

Yes sir, I've actually known quite a few people who could "out shoot" several autos when fired in the ransom rest.

The challenge seems to be that the main thing that makes an auto accurate is how the barrel consistently locks up into the slide (there can be some things in the frame that affect that).

The sights are on the slide (with exceptions for frame mounted optics or a couple of .22 target pistols from the past). So if the slide does not mate to the frame perfectly (and few do) then the rest, which holds the frame, is not as accurate as a really accurate shooter.

Just Ramblin'

Jim

Jim, I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear. I too have known people who could outshoot the old RR. But, I have known only 2 that could out shoot what the gun was capable of out of the box. Most folks can't get out the difference in accuracy a quality 1911 can give right from the box.



Yes Sir, I'd agree.

In fact when I asked Jeff Cooper what level of shooting it took to make "Master" he said: "A master shot is one that can shoot up to his gun." - there is a lot of thinking in that simple statement but I do assume he meant a quality gun

Jim H.

Jim, I will remember that until I turn my toes up. Thanks for sharing that.

Billy Bruton..Carry every step..Shoot every day!
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BatteryOaksBilly
Junior Member

USA
211 Posts

Posted - December 10 2018 :  10:37:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by BatteryOaksBilly

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

Billy,

I sort of missed that comment until Little Bill highlighted it.

Yes sir, I've actually known quite a few people who could "out shoot" several autos when fired in the ransom rest.

The challenge seems to be that the main thing that makes an auto accurate is how the barrel consistently locks up into the slide (there can be some things in the frame that affect that).

The sights are on the slide (with exceptions for frame mounted optics or a couple of .22 target pistols from the past). So if the slide does not mate to the frame perfectly (and few do) then the rest, which holds the frame, is not as accurate as a really accurate shooter.

Just Ramblin'

Jim

Jim, I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear. I too have known people who could outshoot the old RR. But, I have known only 2 that could out shoot what the gun was capable of out of the box. Most folks can't get out the difference in accuracy a quality 1911 can give right from the box.



Yes Sir, I'd agree.

In fact when I asked Jeff Cooper what level of shooting it took to make "Master" he said: "A master shot is one that can shoot up to his gun." - there is a lot of thinking in that simple statement but I do assume he meant a quality gun

Jim H.

Jim, I will remember that until I turn my toes up. Thanks for sharing that.

Billy Bruton..Carry every step..Shoot every day!
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Nanuk
Senior Member

USA
827 Posts

Posted - October 07 2019 :  08:08:11 AM  Show Profile  Click to see Nanuk's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

quote:
Originally posted by Bill D

And here I thought they had the 1911 figured out. So I guess I'll have to throw my 1911's away (even the ones that work) and just use my CZ's, or maybe the have a bad part...Bill



it's not about throwing away any 1911s, if you have working guns you're good.

I got a nice pile of them and mine are staying put.

it's more about where you go if you're buying another, or if you're outfitting a bunch of operators.

Tier One counter terror units have given up and moved on to Glocks for the most part and they pushed the issue for a decade.

another good example is the FBI HRT 1911 selection

in typical Fed fashion they sort of reinvented the wheel, but they were specific about what they needed.

they tested examples from Wilson, Colt, Kimber, Les Baer, and a few others.

they ended up with the Springfield Operator ( after a disaster with the Para), largely due to Sprinfields ability. to meet production demands and supply the requested warranty support.

these were built in Springfield's custom shop and heavily tested before delivery.

even at that there were major issues with the guns after fielding, in the end the FBI hired Steve Nastoff to come in and work reliability issues on a, more or less, one on one basis.

current trend is for FBI SWAT guys to continue a move towards the Glock.

no big slam on the 1911, just the KISS principle in action.




I know its an old post, but..... I was issued one of those FBI HRT PARA's. The FBI did not know how to run them. The Border Patrol got them out of the armory with the blessing of the FBI and gave them out to their pistol team guys and gals.

Those pistols can shoot!!!! They got a bad rap that they did not deserve.


"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." Gen. George Patton
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gw
Advanced Member

4784 Posts

Posted - October 09 2019 :  10:14:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I over simplified a previous reply

I've been talking with a friend that worked at SA back when they got the bid

The HRT got their Les Bauer Para's for the most part, but they had continuing problems feeding Remington GS

The FBI later spec'd a single stack for the SWAT outfits

A number of shops competed for the contract, Les Bauer dropped out voluntarily, he didn't want any part of the maintenance agreement the FBI wanted.

A long acceptance process later, much like the Army Beretta selection, a supplier was chosen

SA was able to deliver on time, provide the warranty, and was one of the few that met the accuracy requirement.

There was some backlash on SA getting the work, but they prevailed, although they probably didn't make much money on the deal.

They had ammo related problems too.

As the single stack guns using Metalform magazines become available, the HRT began to turn in their problematic Para frame guns for the single stack.

Even more so, many kept the issue Glock .40

The Glock was lighter, worked better for the folks going overseas, and held more ammo.

Also, the 1911 transition required a rather intense 4 day training program. Apparently many didn't bother.......

That's probably still over simple, it was really rather a mess

Apparently driven by the competition shooters in the FBI, and their desire for a "custom" 1911.

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on October 09 2019 10:15:51 AM
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