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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4805 Posts

Posted - December 30 2017 :  4:34:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Understood!

I wasn’t meaning to make light of what you’re saying— which I welcome as good advice, learned through experience; and truly appreciate your taking the time to relate it. Sorry if it came across that way....

I guess I’m just a wise guy at heart... who can never seem to resist the chance to crack a joke.... a tendency which used to get me in trouble in school on a regular basis.

And yeah: I see the Shockwave as a relatively-‘crude’ close-quarters weapon, good for fast center-mass hits. Not anything I’d attempt to use for precision shots like Jim’s balloons. I agree that for that sort of shooting, the hi-cap pistol is the weapon of choice.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on December 30 2017 4:50:34 PM
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1779 Posts

Posted - December 30 2017 :  4:42:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Russ Larges

Some years ago I had the chance to shoot a French shotgun with a folding stock and a pistol grip, I forget the name of it, but it was quite popular back then. It was I think banned from import.
The thing was clumsy and heavy. I would not run with light loads, which was not a surprise, and I found it of little use. I did shoot it on the skeet field with heavy loads and the stock folded and found it an exercise in futility.
Russ



Ah, the Franchi SPAS-12. Never liked that gun. I think Hollywood saved it from extinction.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4805 Posts

Posted - December 30 2017 :  9:12:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

As far as the targets on the range being stationary, as opposed to real-life targets moving around chaotically: you’ve definitely identified a shortcoming in my practice routine.

So... after giving it a bit of thought... I’m going to see if I can’t enlist some of the more agile neighborhood kids as ‘target bearers’. And so no one can accuse me of ‘taking advantage of them’, I’ll pay them the same hourly wage they’d make at a boring job at a local fast-food joint.... for the sake of realism, I’ll have them all wear hoodies...

And in honor of you, I’ll be calling them ‘Chris’s kids’....




Nice 'tongue in cheek'. But there is actually a valid point there.
Set up Jim's 'dancing balloon' target at 5 yards. Your Shockwave pattern will be about fist-size at that distance. Then see how fast you can hit it with the Shockwave. Then do the same thing with a decent pistol.

Then set up three balloon targets spaced three-feet apart and run the same test.... and use a timer to see how long it takes.

How many rounds does the Shockwave hold? How many does a 9mm .40 S&W, 10mm or .45 hold? How many times did you miss with the Shockwave? How many times did you miss with the pistol? How many rounds did you have left after hitting the 'misses'.

How long would it take you to reload the semi-auto as opposed to the Shockwave?

What was your margin for error? If my life is on the line I want a minimum margin of error. I honestly believe that's why I'm still alive today. Power is great... but if it can't be applied quickly and where it needs to be applied, it's not that great[:).

Edited to ad. I don't want to seem like I'm lecturing here, although maybe I am. But when things are close, fast, fluid, and nasty (BTDT), only hits counts. Nothing else counts. Misses and noise only serve to run you out of the ammo you need to make those all important hits.

How fast can you hit, and how many bullets do you have left if you miss, so that you can then make the hits?


Agreed on all counts. A ‘powerful miss’ counts for nothing. So if, after a reasonable amount of practice, a person just can’t hit reliably with the Shockwave— or any other weapon— ditch it!

But it’s not either/or: you can have that Shockwave in your hands, and a pistol or 2 on your belt...

Imagine for a moment that you were as good with a Shockwave, as you are with a pistol. That to the same extent that you can wring the maximum capability from your M&P or your GP-100, you could operate the Shockwave at that same level of skill: whatever it was able to do, you could do with it. Your percentage of misses with it— your “margin of error”— was proportional to your current margin of error with your favorite handguns.

It strikes me that at that point, you’d be even ‘deadlier’ than you are now.... shoot the Shockwave dry, drop it, pull one of your M&Ps, and keep on fighting.... (But maybe the fact that I watched Appaloosa last night, is clouding my judgment....)

This ‘trade-off’— brute power, vs. precise, quick shots— strikes me as being similar to everyone’s decision as to what caliber of pistol to carry. Do you carry a 9mm, that gives you moderate recoil, fast ‘split times’ between shots, and lets you get on target quicker in the case of multiple targets? Or do you carry a 10mm, which is harder to ‘manage’, and slower in transitioning from target to target— but gives you maximum effect for each round that does hit the target?

Once again, we’re back to Jim’s axiom that we each must choose our own salvation....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on December 30 2017 10:13:28 PM
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5134 Posts

Posted - January 10 2018 :  7:55:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just watched the last half of this week's installment of "Shooting Gallery", in which Michael Bane and Gabe Suarez explored the benefits of the Mossberg Shockwave and the Remington Tac14. Shooting technique was discussed and demonstrated. At ten yards I saw two center chest Buckshot hits: Bane with a standard stocked shotgun and Suarez with his first shot from one of his worked over TAC14's with red dot sight. Every other shot I saw during the last 15 minutes went leftish and a bit high; even after Suarez explained why people shoot the things high. The last string was on steel with the red dot sight.

Suarez has been developing his version of the TAC 14 for some months now. Seeing his short-range red dot sighted shots wander to 10:00, on a shooting demo, given the time he has obviously spent with the platform, was not encouraging.`

Nevertheless, these not shotguns are reportedly selling like crazy.

Jeff

jle3030

Edited by - jle3030 on January 10 2018 8:05:52 PM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4805 Posts

Posted - January 10 2018 :  9:43:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mr. Suarez takes a $335 (retail) Tac-14, tricks it out, and sells it for $870 to $975; without the red-dot sight. More power to him, if folks think it’s worth the money. The $370 stock Shockwave works fine for me.

For most people, 10-yards is probably the outer limit for these little whatever-they-ares. I certainly don’t see them as a substitute for a stocked shotgun.

I like them as handy, concealable, quickly deployable, short-range blasters.

‘Hickock45’ on his Youtube video ‘Mossberg Shockwave’ doesn’t have any trouble putting his shots where he wants them at under-10-yard ranges.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on January 10 2018 10:34:21 PM
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5134 Posts

Posted - January 11 2018 :  05:08:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As critical as I've been, I still admit to being intrigued by the things and can't quite say I'd "never" buy one. As, in all fairness, "Don't knock it 'til you've tried it". But I have seen many square range misses and marginal hits online and in classes with the classic pistol grip guns. I have yet to see anyone demo the guns on the moving target(s) we might expect in a fast moving gunfight. I can see the guns as "fun guns" or handy short range blasters for non SD utilitarian purposes, but I'd hesitate to bet my life on my own ability to use one in a life or death situation.

So I plan to apply the one year rule. Let folks figure out whether these can be primo fighting guns or if we're seeing a "Forbidden Fruit" reaction to guns we couldn't have before.
There may be some bargains on the used market before too long.

Jeff

jle3030

Edited by - jle3030 on January 11 2018 05:10:18 AM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4805 Posts

Posted - January 11 2018 :  07:23:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Both Remington and Mossberg have come out with 20 gauge versions, which should be easier to hit with.

Once I get my moving-target range set up, I’ll post the results. I’m having more trouble than I’d expected finding neighborhood kids willing to work as mobile target-bearers, even though I’m offering a fair hourly wage. Kids these days! When I was their age, I would have leaped at the chance to earn a few quick bucks....


And yeah, honestly, Jeff: it does sound like you may be resisting a ‘deep inner urge’ to get one. And as many have pointed out in other threads— ‘psychologically-speaking’— it can be very harmful to one’s long term mental health to resist buying those guns we somehow ‘know’ we need....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on January 11 2018 07:43:17 AM
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Pop Pop
Senior Member

USA
831 Posts

Posted - January 11 2018 :  1:16:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just finished watching the same program Jeff watched(Shooting Gallery). Was not impressed with their shooting of either of their guns. Like Jeff, I saw several high and left and some misses at 10 yards.

Their patterning of the guns were high and left, except for a couple. One of Bain's shots only had 1 OO pellet in the high left shoulder area of his target, but all were good groupings at 10 yards. I am going to be watching also.

Seems to me, these short guns are very hard to shoot accurately. Saurez even talked about the proper way to fire them, and still missed a little.

Pop Pop

Edited by - Pop Pop on January 11 2018 1:19:58 PM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4805 Posts

Posted - January 11 2018 :  1:58:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Check out the Hickock45 video I mentioned. He's shooting at 2-liter plastic bottles with the Shockwave, and hitting them every time.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on January 11 2018 2:00:07 PM
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5224 Posts

Posted - January 11 2018 :  3:37:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not to argue, but three things come to mind.
1) Hickock seems to shoot everything pretty well. I suspect he is an anomaly that way.
2) I don't see a need to fuss about the issue. If you can do a hard 25 yard sprint then grab the gun and put shots center-mass, maybe it will serve well for defensive purposes.
3) When I do watch videos and somebody gets just the right results for whatever point they're trying to make--say a new super bullet and it fabulously blows a pork roast into sausage--I tend to wonder how many takes it took to get the perfect take. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4805 Posts

Posted - January 11 2018 :  3:44:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That’s one of the things I like about Hickock45: he doesn’t edit his videos. When he misses— which he sometimes does, sometimes several times in succession— it’s all part of the action. He doesn’t seem like he’s trying to impress anybody.... which I suspect is one of the reasons why so many folks like him.

One thing for sure: any ‘25-yard sprint’ I do is gonna be hard....

Now, a 25-yard stroll.... that’s more my speed...




My only point in mentioning Hickock, is to show that it is possible to shoot these handy little shortguns accurately, at ‘typical self-defense distances’....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on January 11 2018 3:54:17 PM
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3140 Posts

Posted - January 11 2018 :  4:52:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Not to argue, but three things come to mind.
1) Hickock seems to shoot everything pretty well. I suspect he is an anomaly that way.
2) I don't see a need to fuss about the issue. If you can do a hard 25 yard sprint then grab the gun and put shots center-mass, maybe it will serve well for defensive purposes.
3) When I do watch videos and somebody gets just the right results for whatever point they're trying to make--say a new super bullet and it fabulously blows a pork roast into sausage--I tend to wonder how many takes it took to get the perfect take. Ace



Me too! +1. If I was making a You Tube video promoting the latest
"Wonderbanger" I doubt if I would show those takes where I 'screwed the pooch".


Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3140 Posts

Posted - January 11 2018 :  4:54:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On the other hand... if someone came out with a totally reliable semi-auto 20-gauge (maybe recoil operated?) I could get interested.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5134 Posts

Posted - January 11 2018 :  6:05:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not trying to grind an axe here; I'd just love to see some quantified test results. We generally consider some heavier caliber handguns as being unsuitable for self defense purposes by virtue of recoil induced control difficulty and slow shot to shot recovery time. The .44 Magnum comes to mind as a likely lower end power floor. Add some other arbitrary boomers. 454 Casull, .460., .480, .50 S&W, .50 Desert Eagle ... you get the idea.

Shoot those off for time and accuracy vs. each other and vs the Shockwave stocked 14" guns. Load slugs in the shotguns to facilitate scoring and eliminate the vagaries of shot patterns. Low Recoil slugs vs. standard vs. magnum. Increasing distances, e.g. 5-10-15-25 yd...

In these days where the 9mm is becoming ascendant ever the .45 ACP because of "more rounds in the gun and on target" it would be nice to see how shootable the shorty shotties are when compared to handguns widely considered to be too large or much of a good thing powerwise.

Just curious...

Jeff

jle3030
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3140 Posts

Posted - January 11 2018 :  6:10:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

I'm not trying to grind an axe here; I'd just love to see some quantified test results. We generally consider some heavier caliber handguns as being unsuitable for self defense purposes by virtue of recoil induced control difficulty and slow shot to shot recovery time. The .44 Magnum comes to mind as a likely lower end power floor. Add some other arbitrary boomers. 454 Casull, .460., .480, .50 S&W, .50 Desert Eagle ... you get the idea.

Shoot those off for time and accuracy vs. each other and vs the Shockwave stocked 14" guns. Load slugs in the shotguns to facilitate scoring and eliminate the vagaries of shot patterns. Low Recoil slugs vs. standard vs. magnum. Increasing distances, e.g. 5-10-15-25 yd...

In these days where the 9mm is becoming ascendant ever the .45 ACP because of "more rounds in the gun and on target" it would be nice to see how shootable the shorty shotties are when compared to handguns widely considered to be too large or much of a good thing powerwise.

Just curious...

Jeff


A VERY BIG +1. Only hits count. Noise is just a distraction.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4805 Posts

Posted - January 11 2018 :  6:37:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Not to argue, but three things come to mind.
1) Hickock seems to shoot everything pretty well. I suspect he is an anomaly that way.
2) I don't see a need to fuss about the issue. If you can do a hard 25 yard sprint then grab the gun and put shots center-mass, maybe it will serve well for defensive purposes.
3) When I do watch videos and somebody gets just the right results for whatever point they're trying to make--say a new super bullet and it fabulously blows a pork roast into sausage--I tend to wonder how many takes it took to get the perfect take. Ace



Me too! +1. If I was making a You Tube video promoting the latest
"Wonderbanger" I doubt if I would show those takes where I 'screwed the pooch".




That would no doubt be my inclination too: to “show myself at my best”. No doubt I’d find a ‘noble’ reason to ‘explain’ it: “I want my viewers to see what the gun is capable of, since the misses were not the gun’s fault, why include them?”

That’s what I like about old Hickock: he doesn’t seem to need to appear perfect.

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4805 Posts

Posted - January 11 2018 :  7:28:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

I'm not trying to grind an axe here; I'd just love to see some quantified test results. We generally consider some heavier caliber handguns as being unsuitable for self defense purposes by virtue of recoil induced control difficulty and slow shot to shot recovery time. The .44 Magnum comes to mind as a likely lower end power floor. Add some other arbitrary boomers. 454 Casull, .460., .480, .50 S&W, .50 Desert Eagle ... you get the idea.

Shoot those off for time and accuracy vs. each other and vs the Shockwave stocked 14" guns. Load slugs in the shotguns to facilitate scoring and eliminate the vagaries of shot patterns. Low Recoil slugs vs. standard vs. magnum. Increasing distances, e.g. 5-10-15-25 yd...

In these days where the 9mm is becoming ascendant ever the .45 ACP because of "more rounds in the gun and on target" it would be nice to see how shootable the shorty shotties are when compared to handguns widely considered to be too large or much of a good thing powerwise.

Just curious...

Jeff


A VERY BIG +1. Only hits count. Noise is just a distraction.


Add to the above, the fact that very likely, our skill level will be severely degraded in the event of an armed attack, it seems reasonable to assume that we’ll miss more than we usually do. So having 16 rounds on hand, rather than 6, does make a lot of sense.

One thing everyone here seems to agree on, is that accuracy matters most: good shot placement is the necessary first requirement for stopping power— ‘a hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .44’. As Chris says, only hits matter.

So it also makes sense to employ a weapon and caliber that you can shoot with maximum accuracy. Which, for most of us, won’t be the most powerful guns out there, as Jeff points out.

OTOH, there’s the fact that in most gunfights, the first person to achieve a solid hit usually wins— hence the advice of the old gunfighters: ‘Take your time... quickly’.
So there’s a certain advantage to using the most powerful round you can handle well and shoot accurately.

And no, I’m not saying we should assume that our fight will correspond to what happens “most of the time”; recalling Jim’s memorable reminder that a man with his head in the freezer and his feet in the oven will be comfortable ‘on average’. And recalling the many instances where the bad guy took multiple rounds but kept on fighting. And Evan’s words to the effect of, “I never ended a gunfight wishing I’d had less ammo.”

But the fact remains that power does matter; otherwise we’d all be carrying .22s. So we’re all making our own decision as to where on that ‘power vs capacity’ and ‘power vs controllability’ continuum, we choose to be. Many settle on the 9mm Glock 19, many others prefer the .45ACP M1911, the cops where I live have concluded that the .357 SIG serves them best.

I could swear I read recently that a respected trainer— I want to say Tom Givens, but I could be mistaken— said he’d started carrying a 10mm for precisely that reason: he wanted his first shot(s) to hit as hard as possible (paraphrase). But I can’t for the life of me find it.

Then again, quoting Monte Python: Or did I dream it?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on January 11 2018 8:44:14 PM
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BatteryOaksBilly
Junior Member

USA
175 Posts

Posted - January 12 2018 :  5:18:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BatteryOaksBilly

Little Bill, between me and my regular shooters we have 6 of these "things". A pistol grip shotgun and a Raptor gripped one can not be compared. Worse than apples and oranges. I have a 12 inch Remington SBS with a 11 inch pull. it has rifle sights. We can regularly hit 10 inch steel at 100 yards off hand. It is a superb weapon. That is far more useful than the Shockwave to me......BUT the Shockwave is useful as all getout for IT'S intended purpose. My arms are way to short to use it like Clint demos. You can bet his demo sold a lot of Shockwaves. He can make that thing sing. So....I have use for both, but the Shockwave necessitated a laser to be useful for me and my short stature [picture a TALL burly midget], the only laser sighted anything that I own. The laser makes it useful indoors, though it would not be the first thing I have grabbed. Just PLEASE do not fall into the argument that it is useless because PG shotguns don't work ..at least not to me, they are painful for me to shoot. The Raptor grip is a pussycat to use. No comparison to the other animal.

Since I wrote this 2 of the 6 in our group have been sold. Mine was one of them. I could never get the results on target that Clint did. It was much more useful after the laser installation BUT when we restricted ourselves to hallways, doors [car and house], with the timer for our witness, I never could do as well as I could with other tools. It never malfunctioned, never broke and was not painful to shoot. It was that my arms are too short to use this platform. I gave up and went back to my Remington 870 with a 12" brl and a 11"length of pull. Just my findings, just for me. Oh and one other of my shooters.

Billy Bruton..Carry every step..Shoot every day!
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4805 Posts

Posted - January 12 2018 :  10:56:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the feedback. How are they working out for the guys who kept theirs?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5134 Posts

Posted - January 13 2018 :  09:36:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's predictable that these popular new shortguns will be touted as a great option for protection against the big bears. And they do look promising if people can learn to handle them. In all fairness I've had the same question about those who choose to bet their big boomer handguns against the bears when the option is a slug loaded shotgun or a magnum rifle and the stakes are their lives. How well does Joe Nimrod really shoot that short barreled .50 S&W under pressure?

Anyway, why are so many people shooting over the target with the new guns? People miss with shotguns from a couple primary reasons: stopping their swing; failure to properly mount the gun; raising the head off the gun. Without a shoulder stock, the latter two problems are there in spades.

On the TV show Suarez offered a couple key observations. You MUST keep the gun away from your face. When presenting the gun, many people overcompensate and hold the shooting hand too low, thus elevating the muzzle before the shot. Apparently the guns recoil back and down. Again, that raises the muzzle. The recommended shooting sequence is a rhythmic rocking motion, where the action is worked as the gun recoils back and down. Then the gun is pressed out and level for the next shot. And so on.

So there seem to be two ways to shoot high: gun not level on presentation and muzzle rise on recoil. Shooting left (for right handed shooters) is probably related to how the gun interacts with the pressed out support arm.

Guns shoot where they are pointed. The shooter is the variable. I imagine these guns can be shot reliably, given sufficient practice. But it will take more than a box of shells and a few Ibuprofen. Personally I'm pretty sure my early arthritis isn't up to the task, but YMMV.

Jeff

jle3030
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5224 Posts

Posted - January 13 2018 :  09:55:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So bending the barrel a little down and right isn't the proper cure? Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5134 Posts

Posted - January 13 2018 :  11:03:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

So bending the barrel a little down and right isn't the proper cure? Ace

Hey, whatever works!

Jeff

jle3030
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4805 Posts

Posted - January 13 2018 :  12:53:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

It's predictable that these popular new shortguns will be touted as a great option for protection against the big bears. And they do look promising if people can learn to handle them. In all fairness I've had the same question about those who choose to bet their big boomer handguns against the bears when the option is a slug loaded shotgun or a magnum rifle and the stakes are their lives. How well does Joe Nimrod really shoot that short barreled .50 S&W under pressure?

Anyway, why are so many people shooting over the target with the new guns? People miss with shotguns from a couple primary reasons: stopping their swing; failure to properly mount the gun; raising the head off the gun. Without a shoulder stock, the latter two problems are there in spades.

On the TV show Suarez offered a couple key observations. You MUST keep the gun away from your face. When presenting the gun, many people overcompensate and hold the shooting hand too low, thus elevating the muzzle before the shot. Apparently the guns recoil back and down. Again, that raises the muzzle. The recommended shooting sequence is a rhythmic rocking motion, where the action is worked as the gun recoils back and down. Then the gun is pressed out and level for the next shot. And so on.

So there seem to be two ways to shoot high: gun not level on presentation and muzzle rise on recoil. Shooting left (for right handed shooters) is probably related to how the gun interacts with the pressed out support arm.

Guns shoot where they are pointed. The shooter is the variable. I imagine these guns can be shot reliably, given sufficient practice. But it will take more than a box of shells and a few Ibuprofen. Personally I'm pretty sure my early arthritis isn't up to the task, but YMMV.

Jeff



I think you nailed it. And the more powerful the gun, the more practice it’s gonna take to master it. And the more ‘cost’— in both pain, and dollars— you’re gonna have to ‘pay’, in order to practice enough to achieve and maintain that mastery.

According to his article “Trail and Camp Guns” in American Handgunner magazine— there’s a link to it on the Buffalo Bore website— when Tim Sundles guides in grizzly country, his preferred revolver round is the .500 Linebaugh; and his long gun of choice is a Marlin lever-gun chambered in .50 Alaskan. (I wonder what a box or two of each of those costs?) I don’t know how they stack up against a 12 gauge Brenneke slug.

I imagine most of us would need quite a bit of practice before we felt comfortable relying on these rounds to save our bacon. But I for one would want to be carrying the most round I could handle, if I was anywhere I might run into an angry grizz.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on January 13 2018 1:39:57 PM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4805 Posts

Posted - January 13 2018 :  1:44:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

quote:
Originally posted by Ace

So bending the barrel a little down and right isn't the proper cure? Ace

Hey, whatever works!

Jeff


Leave it to Ace, to come up with a low-cost, ‘workable’ solution!

I know one thing for sure: a few minutes spent bending the barrel, is a whole lot less trouble than putting in who-knows-how-many hours, trying to correct your aim....

Thanks, Ace!


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on January 13 2018 1:48:55 PM
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bandaidman
Advanced Member

USA
1379 Posts

Posted - January 13 2018 :  2:23:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

quote:
Originally posted by Ace

So bending the barrel a little down and right isn't the proper cure? Ace

Hey, whatever works!

Jeff


Leave it to Ace, to come up with a low-cost, ‘workable’ solution!

I know one thing for sure: a few minutes spent bending the barrel, is a whole lot less trouble than putting in who-knows-how-many hours, trying to correct your aim....

Thanks, Ace!




Ace, you you may have solved all of Bill's shooting problems of going for the spleen, not sure if his SIG pistols will work that way or maybe Bill you got ripped off in buying your SIG's you need to send them all back to SIG and demand a full refund. Barring that I'd be happy to take some of them off your hands since since I tend to shoot high and to the right What are friends for right

“If for a while the harder you try, the harder it gets, take heart. So it has been with the best people who ever lived.
Jeffery Holland
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