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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5209 Posts

Posted - December 25 2017 :  11:27:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pop Pop: No offense taken and I totally agree with your point. The possibility of uncoordinated crossfire appears to be a necessary risk. It's inherent in being prepared to stop the far greater threat of the active shooter.

Last night at our big annual Christmas family get together I raised this topic with one of my nephews. He's an associate pastor at the biggest church (megachurch) here in Lexington. I'd say they are out on the cutting edge of church security. They rate a small detail of on duty officers to manage traffic before and after their church services and large activities. They have an organized group of volunteers for internal and external security. Some are active or retired military and LEO's. Being armed or not is an individual option. The professionals in the group have formulated policies and procedures. The congregation is large and at any given service will contain a number of active or retired military, LEO and CCDW's. Some packing, some not. They just hired a full time security person with truck to patrol the campus. Car break-ins during services used to be a problem.

Being such a high profile church, they find the security necessary. They are a magnet for many of society's problem children; some of whom bring their problems with them. They vette these people and have found more than one registered sex offender among the volunteers for the children and youth programs.

A church with lots of money and awareness can make itself a pretty hard target.

Jeff

jle3030
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revjen45
Advanced Member

2283 Posts

Posted - December 25 2017 :  12:22:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My musings on the Tokarev as general purpose pistol involve flat trajectory rather than penetration (JHP not being known for penetration). My untested theory is that a well-tuned Tok (sights, trigger job, Seecamp 2-screw accuracy job, etc.) would give good range and accuracy in a conventional (as opposed to an AR with arm brace) sidearm platform with acceptable terminal ballistics from a JHP.

Better to perish in the struggle for freedom than live to see defeat.
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mackpeirson
Starting Member

USA
8 Posts

Posted - December 25 2017 :  1:30:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have had similar concerns as expressed in this thread, for a long time. Back during the 2012 Presidential campaign, my local bishop had discreetly asked me, and a couple of others who had concealed handgun licenses, if I would consider bringing my pistol to church, as he was worried about the sentiments that he was hearing. At that time, Texas had recently removed the prohibition on carrying at a church, unless there was a notice given that handguns were not allowed. My church has an overall policy that carrying weapons in the building is "inappropriate". I decided, after prayer and reflection, that not being prepared to defend myself and others was an exercise in being foolish. Since that time I have generally been armed, but have been very careful that nobody has any idea that I am. It is unfortunate that this leaves me in a position where others may also be prepared to respond to an attack at church, but we are not doing any pre-planning or training together. This decreases our potential effectiveness, and increases the danger in the event of an incident. I am not sure at all how to proceed to improve on that situation.

In terms of hardware issues, I have settled on carrying my Glock 22 with additonal magazines. I have an Endo Tactical adapter with an installed Shockwave pistol brace, but it is separate in the briefcase that I bring. The combination, while compact, is still too large to fit into any briefcase or computer bag that i have found. I have considered adding a Law Tactical folder to the combination, but even that, folded, is still a bit long, and is also rather thick. My preferred piece of r ordinance would be the 300 Blackout pistol that I have built, with an 8" barrel. That combination, however, is slightly over 27" in length, and again will not fit into any sort of discreet case that I would consider bringing regularly to church, or to an office. I have regularly kept a broken-down AR-15 in a Blackhawk case that looks like a tennis racquet bag in the back of my car, but I always thought of that as a tool to help me get home in case of a major civil disturbance or disaster rather than as a tool for defense against an active shooter. I have no illusions that I could "fight my way to the rifle" in such a case, so whatever I have with me at the time will have to suffice.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4958 Posts

Posted - December 25 2017 :  2:02:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mack, have you read Evan’s posts (in the Rifle Rack) about his combination of a Glock 22 and a folding KelTec Sub2000 that takes G22 mags? His setup fits in a laptop bag that wouldn’t be out of place at church or office.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on December 25 2017 2:13:40 PM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4958 Posts

Posted - December 25 2017 :  2:06:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In quite a few of these posts, it’s clear that the decisions by church ‘leaders’ to restrict or forbid firearms, and/or coordinated training, is a big factor in keeping churches less safe than they could be....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3229 Posts

Posted - December 25 2017 :  2:20:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just a thought.... but if an active shooter bursts suddenly into your church and begins spraying rounds from a semi-auto rifle, will anyone have the time to dig their self-defense gear out of a bag?

How much time will that take? How many, including the bag-digger, might die before an effective response can be generated?

Seconds count regarding the lives possibly lost. How many seconds do you have? How many lives, including yours, might be lost in the ten, or more, seconds it takes you to get a gun out of the bag and get it into action?

There's nothing wrong with having that option with you. But IMHO, the best response would be the "speed and violence of action" afforded by a serious pistol in a holster on your belt.

If you have to stop,think, and dig equipment out of a carry bag in a situation like this, you may already be well behind the curve.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Pop Pop
Senior Member

USA
887 Posts

Posted - December 25 2017 :  3:37:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Chris, your previous post is exactly why I am looking at the M P 2.0. I want a bigger gun, with longer brl and sight radius. The extra ammo on board is just an added plus.

My 7 shooter revolver, while I can cock it and be more accurate at distance, is becoming a liability because of it's shortcomings. Desire the better options the 2.0 "possibly" gives one. I sure hate to learn a new pistol, let alone the cost of additional ammo, but will give me something to play with in the near future.

Pop Pop

Edited by - Pop Pop on December 25 2017 3:41:50 PM
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Keith
Advanced Member

USA
2838 Posts

Posted - December 25 2017 :  7:11:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jamtmiller

This is indeed very complex and no single response may work in all situations. This to me begs the question; How does one train to overcome being shot at?

Add in people running, screaming, and bleeding, how can I train myself to get over the gun blast and the sound of bullets whizzing by?


This would be tough to answer since no two people are the same. Even the same person can experience things differently, depending on whether he or she is switched on, dialed in, and expecting trouble...or caught totally flat-footed in Condition White. Whether it is the sub-sonic ssssszzzzzp! of a pistol bullet, or the murderous-sounding craaack! of a rifle bullet.

You remember the incident in April of 1986 in Miami when the FBI shot it out with two hardened bank robbers, one of them armed with Ruger Mini-14. I'm betting too that you recall the training film the FBI made afterwards. In the film agent Ed Mireles talks about arriving on scene, with his shotgun in hand, to be greeted with the sound of gunfire being exchanged between agents already on scene and the armed bad guys.

Ed spoke of the pop-pop-pop of handguns being fired, and also the "psychologically devastating" KA-BOOM, KA-BOOM sound of the .223 caliber Mini-14 being fired at the agents. As you recall, however, Ed felt driven to cross the street to join the other FBI agents, despite it being swept by rifle fire, because he didn't want his brother agents to be alone under the robbers' gun muzzles.

Give that some thought. You probably can find the FBI film itself somewhere on the 'net if you want to hear his words again. The sound of guns being fired toward you can be disheartening, to say the least.

Location plays a huge part, of course. The crack of a rifle bullet passing by you in an open field sounds different from when you're in a thickly forested, densely-foliaged area where the humidity is really high. When it's really humid you even have a sense of air pressure pressing against your skin for a split second as the bullet passes by. You don't get that so much out in the open.

Acoustics also play a large part on the variations in the sound. I know that you've noticed the difference in sound between shooting from within a booth at an indoor range, and in contrast, shooting at an open-air outdoor range. It's the same with incoming fire as it is with outgoing fire. Being fired on by someone across the street can sound different from being fired at by someone when you're inside a warehouse.

So there's no easy way to prep someone for what it's like to be shot at. Outside of actually shooting at you during training, which is unacceptably dangerous...or trying to talk though it by sharing our experiences like we're doing here. All of us have some experience to add.

Practically speaking, at the ranges we're talking about in street gunfights you don't have to worry much with the sound of bullets as they pass by you. You'll be close enough to the bad guy that his gun blasts will likely be the only thing that registers with you. And, as FBI agent Ed Mireles noted, that alone can take the starch out of a guy.

How can we learn to deal with that?

First off, understand that you really aren't the newbie in this regard that you might think you are. If you think back, I'm betting you've stood beside somebody who fired a full-house load of buckshot from a super-short-barreled shotgun. Or you were standing off to the side of a guy firing a combat rifle with a muzzle brake that was designed to route the blast (and sound) out the side of the muzzle.

Do you recall the sound waves stinging against your skin a little when the round went off? Do you remember how it thrummed your rib cage, or sinus cavities, or vibrated against your bladder for just a split second? Or you'd have sworn the up-close blast made your shoe laces jiggle? That's pretty much the worst of what it's like to be shot at up close, assuming the bullet(s) missed you.

But I'm betting that, as a practical matter, you've already experienced it at a firing range. You just weren't aware of it being akin to what you'll experience in a fight.

I'm asking you to think back and try to reconnect with that sensation in your memory. Remember how it gave you a split-second pause because it was totally new to you, but how you recognized it as a by-product of the gun going off; you instantly recovered and went on with what you were doing.

That's the key, you don't have to let it distract you or slow you down. In fact, you've got to fight to keep that from happening. Unlock your muscles and joints, and keep moving. The bottom line is, if you weren't hit, you were missed...and misses don't count. If you allow yourself to freeze up, even for an instant, you've just turned yourself into a nice stationary B-27 silhouette for your adversary. Don't give him that, or anything else.

Depending again on whether or not you're in Condition White when you're shot at, you may (or may not) experience some deafening which itself can be disorienting if you allow it to be. It's all part of the low-grade stunning effect that being shot at up-close can have on you. (Again, we're talking about a shot that misses you and how even that can have a brief detrimental effect.)

You may have heard, or read, in years past where some firearms trainer advocated that you get the first shot off in a gunfight. Even if that shot didn't always hit its mark. The reason being that most bad guys, even the ones who fancy themselves to be hard cases, can be momentarily distracted by just the sound of a gun being fired directly at them. Any distraction your assailant experiences can give you fractions of time that you can exploit right when you need it the most.

A much better strategy, certainly, is to hammer a bullet solidly into the bad guy's torso, as you can bank on it being a much better "distraction". But still, a lot of bullets miss their mark in close-quarters gunfights, and we'd be remiss if we didn't give consideration to all the effects of gunfire, regardless of which direction it's coming from. This isn't the place to be doctrinaire about one aspect of things to the exclusion of others.

The point I'm trying to (awkwardly) make is that to deal with this sort of thing requires (a) focus, and (b) gun-handling competence.

The gun-handling competence is the easiest to understand. Most of us are already on that track. You've got to be so skilled and well-practiced that you don't have to think about functioning your weapon. It's second nature to you. This frees up your mind for tactical considerations. We can't kid ourselves about how good our skills are, either. We've got to know for real.

With regard to "focus", you've got to cultivate a mindset where you've accepted that bad trouble can show up any time and any where...and that you may not get out of it without a bloody nose, so to speak. (Pretty sobering thing to contemplate.) You need to develop a pre-set switch in your mind that allows you to instantly go into fighting mode, the moment you decide to flip the switch. We all need to come to terms with what it means to go into fighting mode, and resolve any moral issues about it ahead of time.

It might be a little easier to explain if we switch gears slightly, and talk about somebody suddenly pulling a knife on you at spitting distance and initiating a full scale assault. The one thing we can bank on is that if someone makes an all-out effort to attack you with a knife, you're gonna get cut as you try to fend him off. There's just no way around it. So you might as well accept it and hope you can keep him from clipping the tendons in your forearm or behind your knee, or getting in close enough to stab you in the torso, as you work to subdue him with empty-hand techniques and/or a firearm.

That's the infuriating thing about a knife assault like that.

You're gonna get cut, probably cut pretty badly, no matter how good you are...and you have NO say in the matter. None. Your only choice is to somehow minimize the damage he can do until he is forcibly neutralized. Kind of like the choice that an active killer gives us between a few innocents being injured or killed...and a LOT of innocents being injured or killed. How DARE someone do that? How DARE they...?

It is infuriating...and that is a very good thing, provided that you channel your anger to work for you instead of against you. Your anger can be used to galvanize your focus, allowing you to flip the switch in your mind with all your systems streamlined and responding at 100% to your will. Because your systems are switched on things like gunfire won't bother you near so much. So learning how to cultivate a controlled anger is a good thing. It is the catalyst that will carry you through to your goal.

I hope this provokes some thought among everyone. As Jim Higginbotham points out, none of us us know so much that we know it all.

The one thing that I do know after over 38 years of being a LEO, the police can't be everywhere. Try as they might, the "first responders" often can't get to an active killer event in time to stop the carnage, and the clock is ticking. The need is for a "first defender" to already be on scene, armed, alert and ever watching.

Over the years we've come to accept the concept of a "designated driver" as a social responsibility for curbing the incidence of injury and death from DUI. We've come to look on it as a sensible and effective idea, not a sad commentary on our society in general. I'd put the concept of a "designated defender" in the same category. But however you want to label it, it's something we have to sort out and put in place.





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jamtmiller
Starting Member

USA
27 Posts

Posted - December 25 2017 :  8:16:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you Jim, Keith, and the rest. I have much to consider on this topic.

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Pop Pop
Senior Member

USA
887 Posts

Posted - December 26 2017 :  09:11:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To expand on Keith's advice on being fired at and the sound. I reported on another thread on this forum (Bustin Caps), a couple weeks ago, about my families outing shooting in my back yard. We started with a 22 revolver. then went to a 383pl, then to a 38 spl in a Henry Lever gun. After shooting them I had some aging self defense ammo that needed to be spent in my EDC (snubie 357 mag). I wanted to use it for good practice, so I slowed things a bit. When I touched off the first round of DPX, my son-in-law's dad said, "Man, the leaves blew on the ground, in front of him, when that thing went off." My SIL said I felt the pressure on my chest, as he was standing beside me.

Yes Keith is correct, that would be scary and even more devastating if someone was firing the 357 at you.

On another thought, I just read another blog and the guy had an article(revue) on a book he just read on Active Shooters and the advice the author gave in the book. The book said to pour something slick on the floor to slow the progress of the shooter. The article responder was saying that this was terrible advice, and I would agree. Three sets of participants are in an active shooter incident. The bad guy, the intended targets, and first responders. The slick floor will hamper all 3 participants, two of whom does not need to be slowed in their response. The victims(fleeing) , and responders (viciously attacking the shooter) don't need to be hampered with slick floors. BAD advice, pouring something slick on a floor.

He also brought up another phenomena, with two of the last attacks. The perp shot at the building before entering. One was in the Locked Down School, where they heard gunfire a short distance away and locked down. Said the shooter fired 30 rounds at the locked school, which the perp was unable to make entry, and the shooter in the the church shooting in Texas also shot at the building as he was coming in the door. "My possible assumption", the shooters were using this for the same reason Keith discussed, in his previous post. They did it to frighten the victims, thereby seeking to achieve the affect Keith discussed earlier. Paralyzing fear in the victims.

Keith's discussion is right on!

Pop Pop
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5302 Posts

Posted - December 26 2017 :  09:55:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don't know who it is, but I'd venture a guess the 'pour something slick on the floor' guy is a Keyboard Kammando or Mall Ninja, with a very active fantasy life. I've talked to these types, who seem to believe we get to plan our fights, and will be thinking in a clear, linear manner when it happens. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3229 Posts

Posted - December 26 2017 :  1:51:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The posts regarding how one would respond to the sudden sound of gun fire and rounds zipping by may ignore the fact that the active shooter will have to experience the same thing if they are suddenly met with "speed and violence of action".

That may not have factored into their plans. They may not have figured on that. Nor, may they have figured on bullets slamming into various portions of their anatomy.

Anything one can do in an active shooting situation to disrupt the plan of the active shooter... and possibly get some bullets into them that physically prevents them from carrying out their plans... is a positive.

As Evan noted in a previous post, you may well be confronted with the reality of casualties or MASS casualties. Neither is good. But the former is much preferred over the latter.

"Speed and violence of action" is, in my opinion, the best way to prevent the latter. The sooner the active shooter's attack can be disrupted, the less people die.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9620 Posts

Posted - December 27 2017 :  1:19:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know we cannot predict with 100% reliability what will happen but I'd have to say the odds are pretty fair that responding with gunfire will have a positive effect (from the defender's point of view) on an Active Shooter - if history is any guide.

Many of these folks are not prepared to be shot or even shot at.

Of course in the case of the determined terrorist, who might also be a suicide bomber, that might not be the case but so far in this country the church shooters seems to pretty flaky.

Jim H.

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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retfed89
Advanced Member

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - December 28 2017 :  2:08:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Re-reading these posts about being in an active shooter situation & being shot at got me thinking. While I have never been shot at have been in the butts of a rifle range pulling targets. Was 17 & in the Nat. Guard qvualifying with the M1 Carbine. Sort of a snapping sound as the rounds went by, about 20 firing at a time was noisy and had no desire to stick my head up. I can see how incoming would distract the shooter. Retfed
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3229 Posts

Posted - December 28 2017 :  2:52:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I hate to keep coming back to "Speed & violence of action", but it is appropriate if you are being shot at.
I learned that 47 years ago on a little island of the coast of southern California call San Clemente. I wasn't a SEAL... but they were the ones who were unmercifully grilling that concept into us Special Boat Unit people who were there for training.

If someone is shooting at you... you hammer enough rounds back at them... rapidly... to disrupt their aim/plans. If you can hit them, even better. That impedes them further.

Running & hiding just gives them more opportunity to shoot you.

If you don't stop their attack quickly with a determined and forcefull
response you're just going to keep getting attacked.

A serious pistol on the hip, and the will to use it quickly, would stop a lot of these active shooter events before casualties mount.





Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Tom-R2
Starting Member

USA
30 Posts

Posted - December 28 2017 :  9:09:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I went through my retired LE carry quals the other day. I let my friend and firearms instructor shoot some hot handloads out of my 357Sig. I was standing just to the side and I could feel that concussion shock wave, somewhat similar to that coming off of an AR15 with a brake on it. I started thinking of a video documentary I saw recently about some of our soldiers in Afghanistan. It's called "Restrepo" You can find it on YouTube. Those guys were engaged in firefights almost every day. It's amazing to see their transformation from their first days in country to their demeanor several months later as the bullets were whizzing by. They were cool under fire because of their experiences day in and day out. I only hope that I would be half as composed in another shooting situation. I wasn't shot at in the first, but I struggled with my assailant over control of my pistol and I ended it by being the shooter. I'm trying to stay as prepared as I can as I get older. If I'm ever in that position, I'll do my best. If I would win such an engagement, it will be credited to some Divine help. But another side of me hopes if it comes to it, that I don't blink when I shoot because I'm really wanting to see what a hot 357Sig round does when it hits the bad guy in the middle of his face.
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