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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5838 Posts

Posted - February 06 2022 :  09:59:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tom Givens (Rangemaster, Memphis) has gleaned some informative statistics from the gunfights in which his students have been involved. I won't try to rewrite Givens' articles here, but his numbers are striking.

He is aware of 68 shooting incidents involving his students:
65 wins; 3 losses. ("Forfeits" as Givens calls them; those killed were unarmed when they were murdered.) Some of the "winners" were wounded.

Most involved armed robbery attempts. Only 10% occurred in or around the person's home. 90% were "out and about" - workplace, parking lots, convenience stores, carjackings, etc.

60 shootings were at 3-7 yards: most at 3-5 yards. Only 2 were at contact distance. Three were at longer distances: 15, 17, and 22 yards.

All but two of the survivors reported that they had brought their guns up to eye level, as trained, and hit their assailants. The other two would be the ones forced to resort to contact shots.

Most of the confrontations occurred in reduced light. None, however, involved the use of a flashlight or gun mounted light. There was sufficient ambient light to identify and defeat the threats.

Takeaway: Civilian defensive shootings are significantly different from law enforcement or military gunfights. The assailant(s) must approach the citizen in order to initiate the attack. This results in short, fast, close encounters, remarkably consistent in their nature. Not all of Givens' 65 students escaped unscathed, but they all prevailed. The only ones killed were the other three who were unarmed.

Jeff

jle3030

Ace
Advanced Member

USA
6121 Posts

Posted - February 07 2022 :  08:31:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've been asked 'What are the odds I'll need to use my gun for defense?' Well, zero if it never happens, 100% if it does (I think I got that from somebody here) Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Evan
Administrator

34969 Posts

Posted - February 09 2022 :  10:24:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Every time I read about distances in such events, I get skeptical. Between my own experiences, my time in CSI&Homicide,I never saw anyone with a tape measure. When civilians talk about not being involved in incidents around their vehicles unlike cops, I wonder how many Amish have concealed carry permits? Two nights ago, here in Mesa, AZ, getting out of my wife's sisters brand new very expensive SUV I had to run off two people who were displaying great interest in her vehicle. I had my right hand stuffed in my front pocket wrapped around a J frame and my left hand about 3" from my hi cap 9MM loaded with IMI +P jhps.

Remember, you never know what you never know!

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Pop Pop
Advanced Member

USA
1594 Posts

Posted - February 09 2022 :  10:48:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I recently read Tom's latest book. His words, Tom was living in, IMO and his also, the most dangerous city in America. Memphis TN. These people, in his story, were not Police. IMO, those of us who are not law enforcement need to look seriously at these stats. My wife has a sister who lives in Memphis. She is afraid to go out at night.

At 74, 3 weeks, I am getting concerned about my diminishing capabilities as of late. Have been practicing more and using Tom's advice given in his book." Concealed Carry Class" the ABCs of self defense tools and tactics.

Interestingly Tom Gives gives Jim Higginbotham acknowledgement for teaching him valuable lessons in self defense knowledge in his latest book. Kudos Jim.

Pop Pop

Edited by - Pop Pop on February 09 2022 10:57:53 AM
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3878 Posts

Posted - February 09 2022 :  3:45:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Evan

Every time I read about distances in such events, I get skeptical. Between my own experiences, my time in CSI&Homicide,I never saw anyone with a tape measure. When civilians talk about not being involved in incidents around their vehicles unlike cops, I wonder how many Amish have concealed carry permits? Two nights ago, here in Mesa, AZ, getting out of my wife's sisters brand new very expensive SUV I had to run off two people who were displaying great interest in her vehicle. I had my right hand stuffed in my front pocket wrapped around a J frame and my left hand about 3" from my hi cap 9MM loaded with IMI +P jhps.

Remember, you never know what you never know!



It does tend to bring a smile to your face, that when faced with thugs, we know that they are in more trouble than we are because we are ready to immediately shoot them.
I hope none of us ever have to experience that smile (at least. not again). But the "smile" does exist. BTDT

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
6121 Posts

Posted - February 09 2022 :  7:20:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Getting close to time to replace the old shoot-me-first vest. Time comes, I'll be looking for one with a little deeper side pockets; make it easier to pin in a pocket holster and bring the .38 snubby out of semi-retirement. Quicker than having to draw from the belt or pants pocket if the fan gets dirty. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9957 Posts

Posted - February 10 2022 :  10:39:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, when you were involved in police work they usually used "Chains and rods"

I've seen a few measurements used, the longest one used a surveyor's wheel and it worked out to just over 250 yards - the weapon was a shotgun using slugs - I only mention that to point out it was the exception.

About the only mention of range I've run into in the typical situation is the presence of stippling or not. Otherwise sometime the size of a room in which the shooting occurred.

Still, Tom's observations are good and he has been involved in a lot of arrests. I do like his tendency to break them down into practical dimensions - like car lengths.

Jim H.



quote:
Originally posted by Evan

Every time I read about distances in such events, I get skeptical. Between my own experiences, my time in CSI&Homicide,I never saw anyone with a tape measure. When civilians talk about not being involved in incidents around their vehicles unlike cops, I wonder how many Amish have concealed carry permits? Two nights ago, here in Mesa, AZ, getting out of my wife's sisters brand new very expensive SUV I had to run off two people who were displaying great interest in her vehicle. I had my right hand stuffed in my front pocket wrapped around a J frame and my left hand about 3" from my hi cap 9MM loaded with IMI +P jhps.

Remember, you never know what you never know!


Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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Evan
Administrator

34969 Posts

Posted - February 10 2022 :  9:44:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like Tom and he's a superb instructor. I just am skeptical about distances. In Detroit most dustups happened at bad breath distances!

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5838 Posts

Posted - February 11 2022 :  08:55:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Evan

I like Tom and he's a superb instructor. I just am skeptical about distances. In Detroit most dustups happened at bad breath distances!

Could this be an example of Givens' point that police and civilian shootings differ? The idea being that police must close with their subjects to affect an inquiry or arrest, whereas armed citizens need to prevent the criminal from closing with them.

Alternatively, all shootings in Givens' study involve his own students, a small subset of trained individuals, not necessarily representative of the general public. Such people would be more likely to recognize trouble from a greater distance, to react earlier, and more preemptively. A few seconds faster OODA loops would likely increase the shooting distance and greatly enhance the shooters survivability. They would be ahead of the curve, rather that behind it. Hence the very high win percentage.

Just speculating here.

Jeff


jle3030

Edited by - jle3030 on February 11 2022 09:01:48 AM
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Pop Pop
Advanced Member

USA
1594 Posts

Posted - February 11 2022 :  10:01:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jeff my danger zone is similar to Tom's students. I reside in Middle TN, Tom in Memphis area. I go to the store, eat out, and a very small amount of shopping for necessities in my daily routine. My big exposure is traveling and fulling up at stop and robs. Therefore, I look at Tom's report and have decided to use some of his advice, from his book, to work in with my failing abilities to try and stay as accurate as possible at my advanced age with health issues. We try to stay very vigilant when taking on fuel.

I am using some of the shooting drills, for practice, and know distance is individual in nature. Evan, seems to be on the "in your face" side, and Tom's students report is at "short to mid distance" side. Most 3 to 5 yards.

Gives me something to use when out instead of just throwing expensive lead down range. Most of my practice is from 5 to 25 yards with my revolvers and pistols. I qualified at 50', with a SW 681 shooting 38 practice, when completing the NRA Instructor course qualifier. I memory serves it was 20 out of 20 with one questionable for me on my target. Barely cut the edge of the 8" plate off hand. That was several years back. As of late been drawing from concealment and shooting with a hot revolver from my pocket. Being very deliberate with it while concentrating fully. It is dangerous, but so is being forced to use your tools in an emergency, as many of you guys know. Use IWB pistol 9MM at 3 to 4 O clock, and backup revolver 357 from pocket holster.

I am glad to say I have lost weight and the two are virtually hidden (concealed) except from expert eyes may see a slight bulge in my right pocket. I do wear dark trousers/floppy shirts most times and play the gray man.

Edited to add; I pray often that I never will be forced to use them.

Pop Pop

Edited by - Pop Pop on February 11 2022 10:04:05 AM
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3878 Posts

Posted - February 11 2022 :  1:21:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rather than dicker about actual distances... shouldn't consideration be given to the distance that a Prosecutor would consider "reasonable fear"? Depending upon how the attacker was armed, that could vary a great deal.

Being shot at from 25+yards is one thing. No issue there. A guy waving a knife and screaming at you from the same distance? Different story.
Same guy with knife inside 20 feet, and advancing towards you, totally different story.

In the VAST majority of cases a civilian in a self-defense situation will have the attacker close & quick. Big sights you can see fast, most powerful load you can deliver rapid hits with, and the ability to access and present the gun quickly, are critical.

Speed counts. And if the initial rounds don't solve the situation, your hits may impede the attacker long enough for you to apply additional "thug repellent"

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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jlwilliams
Average Member

USA
260 Posts

Posted - February 11 2022 :  8:39:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I see the point that the actual distance may be a bit fuzzy, but the bare bones of his report are instructive.

3-7 meters may be information gleaned from police reports written after the fact by police with measuring instruments or may be estimates. Likely some of each. Anyway, arms length to a car length.

One statistical point that I see as significant is that all the armed responses prevailed and all the losses were unarmed.

I also think it's interesting that despite the media telling us that the world is somehow a new and different world full of novel danger, the confrontations were basic old fashioned street crime. Robbery, rape or both are still the big drivers of lethal civilian conflict. When I hear about how the world is somehow "more dangerous" today I question if whoever is pitching that theory remembers the 70s or 80s. I bet no.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9957 Posts

Posted - February 12 2022 :  09:30:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I haven't talked to Tom in a little while, but I don't think he has changed is mind, he tells his pupils that the typical fight takes place inside of 3 yards, is over in 3 seconds and the defender normally expends 3 rounds.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule.

I think the one he lists at 22 yards involved an attacker who was shooting at some children much closer to him than the defender.

Jim H.


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Evan
Administrator

34969 Posts

Posted - February 12 2022 :  3:09:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In Detroit, the garden spot of America, most fights started at bad breath distances. But Big City PD's have a troubling tendency to fudge on such factors to make the coppers shine. In Motown we were simply thrilled that the good guys were alive, and the bad guys were "resting" on a stainless-steel table.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9957 Posts

Posted - February 12 2022 :  3:18:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Evan

In Detroit, the garden spot of America, most fights started at bad breath distances. But Big City PD's have a troubling tendency to fudge on such factors to make the coppers shine. In Motown we were simply thrilled that the good guys were alive, and the bad guys were "resting" on a stainless-steel table.



Of course the bad guys were just about to turn their life around and walk the straight an narrow

I haven't mentioned this as it is an ongoing case, but the son of a friend of mine, who is an officer in one of our big cities, was shot in the face by a miscreant who had just killed a construction worker and who had broken his parole in Florida for another violent crime.

Jim H.

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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5838 Posts

Posted - February 12 2022 :  8:29:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I notice that many of the losers in police shootings were aspiring rap artists.

Jeff

jle3030
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billmc
Senior Member

647 Posts

Posted - February 12 2022 :  10:18:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

I notice that many of the losers in police shootings were aspiring rap artists.

Jeff


I think that's part of the genre, isn't it?
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Evan
Administrator

34969 Posts

Posted - February 13 2022 :  4:35:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We need to understand that the deadly force incident will often last less than a minute and prosecutors, the media, and the public will have months to examine it relying on the media to provide the unvarnished truth. I was at Homicide only a couple of months when I learned to hate prosecutors as much as I do criminal defense attorneys! I even had a chief who thought I should be tried for murder and then when I was found innocent all the controversy would evaporate. I asked him if I got found guilty could I get overtime for the next 50 years, so he dropped that idea!

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
6121 Posts

Posted - February 13 2022 :  8:02:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We had a legal advisor who seriously wanted us to wait until we were shot at before unholstering and shooting back; would be even better if we got hit, so it would be easier for her to defend our actions. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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