StoppingPower.net Forums
Home
Forums
Commentary
H&S
About
StoppingPower.net Forums

StoppingPower.net Forums - Gelatin ain't people
StoppingPower.net Forums
StoppingPower.net Forums
Forums Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ | Invite a friend
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Stopping Power
 Test Bed
 Gelatin ain't people
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author  Topic Next Topic  

Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9838 Posts

Posted - October 28 2019 :  10:30:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Someone sent me an article the other day from an old guns magazine. I think it was called "Gunfighters I have known". In any case I was familiar with all the names and the author did not exaggerate.

One I found interesting was Bill Allard, who shot more people than Jim Cirillo (at least officially so, I'm not sure how many people Jim shot "unofficially"). I've heard an interview with Bill in which he said he frequently used handloads with a 200 gr. SWC but in this article he mentioned he also used the Norma 230 gr. JHP (other than the SuperVel 190 that was about the only factory JHP in the 60's). Bill shot a National Match Colt .45 auto mostly, but he was fond of the sawed off Ithica 12 gauge.

He said he never had it go through a person. I've shot a variety of mediums and shot a few varmints with that load - I've never seen it expand. I've not seen any gel test on it but similar shaped bullets that did not expand gave 24 to 27" of penetration in 10 % gel and Clear Ballistics gel (which seems to give about 5% more penetration on average) at handgun velocities.

So, my question is this, if a bullet that normally gets 2 feet of penetration in gel doesn't normally go though people - why do we get excited about bullets that go over 18" in gel?

Mind you I've seen bullet that go only 12-14" in gel got through people - one was a 115gr. 9mm JHP with killed the officer's partner.

Gel might be a nice consistent medium to compare one load to another if they gel is calibrated, but it is no predictor of whether a bullet will penetrate enough or too much. That depends more on *who* you are shooting (is he muscular or flabby) and what you hit inside (like bone, muscle or fat).

In the two shootings locally we had with ball (a .45 230 and a .40 180) neither went through. Oddly enough both were instant stops.

Jim H.

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!

gauchobill
Advanced Member

1152 Posts

Posted - October 29 2019 :  06:55:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Can it be possible to find a correlation between bullets that strike bone and death or incapacity?
Go to Top of Page

Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3658 Posts

Posted - October 29 2019 :  09:34:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gauchobill

Can it be possible to find a correlation between bullets that strike bone and death or incapacity?


Good point. Gelatin is a uniform substance intended to duplicate muscle tissue. The human body is not a uniform substance.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
Go to Top of Page

Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9838 Posts

Posted - October 29 2019 :  10:23:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gauchobill

Can it be possible to find a correlation between bullets that strike bone and death or incapacity?



I'm not sure Bill, but I find a correlation between striking bone and putting critters down (not so sure about people - I've heard of a lot of pelvic shots failing)

OTOH, if you hit the heart on a human there is about an 80-89% chance you hit bone going in (depending on the angle of the shot of course).

Jim H.

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
Go to Top of Page

Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9838 Posts

Posted - October 29 2019 :  10:29:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

quote:
Originally posted by gauchobill

Can it be possible to find a correlation between bullets that strike bone and death or incapacity?


Good point. Gelatin is a uniform substance intended to duplicate muscle tissue. The human body is not a uniform substance.



Even human soft tissue is different than Gel, muscle resists penetration more if you the bullet is traveling against the grain rather than with the grain (don't mistake this as a condemnation of using gel - just a caution to not fall into the trap of thinking it predicts how far a bullet will penetrate with accuracy)

Gel resists penetration equally in all directions (which is probably one reason "calibrated" gel is consistent). I tested some pork rib meat (without the bone) - a BB at 590 fps penetrated approximately 33% more with the grain than across the grain.

Jim H.

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
Go to Top of Page

CW2 Ralph Long
Average Member

USA
415 Posts

Posted - October 29 2019 :  1:05:07 PM  Show Profile  Click to see CW2 Ralph Long's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
The best indicator of what will work is, as Evan noted early on, what has worked. His books were the basis of what our P.D. used to determine what ammunition to buy for duty use in the '90's. To me, there appears to be some strong correlation between high Foot Pounds of Energy (400 ft. lbs. and up that stay in the target) with what works well most often. The 125 grain .357 Magnum gets well over 500 ft. lbs. from a 3-4" barrel is an example of a bullet that does that.

As I watch the recent YouTube videos of bullet tests, everyone seems to want to get as close to 18" of penetration as possible. In Stopping Power, Evan's last book, his observation that the Border Patrol looked for 9-12" of penetration and that they had more shootings than the rest of the Feds put together made us look hard at what had worked for them. One load was Federal BPLE (+P+).

For folks that think they need a handgun that shoots through cars and other barriers and still punch 15" deep in flesh, such a bullet will not upset as easily. Those bullets will likely carry some amount of energy out the back side of "cloth armored only" humans. The TX DPS and VA State Troopers found the SIG .357 Gold Dot traveling at some 1350-1375 fps expanded and seldom existed the suspect. It was exhibiting a 90-93% OSS last I knew...but TX and now VA appear to be going Sig 320 in 9mm.

The one PD shooting I helped investigate involving the +P+ 9mm went through an outside PU truck mirror and side window at a 45 degree angle and penetrated six inches into the driver's chest. It was an instant stop. Gelatin is only a standard medium to compare potential penetration and expansion.

As is noted here daily, bullet placement in the central nervous system is the only near guarantee that an adversary won't have to be shot repeatedly with whatever we are relying on. Realistic practice with a reliable firearm and ammunition that is known to work is the best guarantee of outliving our armed adversaries......And oh yeah, I discovered that being prepared to meet my Maker is a confidence builder that keeps my adrenaline from completely overpowering my ability to contend well. I heard a Protestant Christian WWII vet of the Battle of the Bulge say he was wounded badly and carried to the Battalion Aid Station. He looked up to see a Jewish Chaplain giving him Catholic Last Rights. He said he knew he was in pretty bad shape but figured that he, at least, had all the bases covered!

“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed;
if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may
come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”

Winston Churchill

Edited by - CW2 Ralph Long on October 29 2019 4:30:37 PM
Go to Top of Page

Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3658 Posts

Posted - October 29 2019 :  1:26:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll second Evan's OIS/civilian shooting stats in his Stopping Power books. Real Life is a lot different from jello. I'd rather have the Real Life data

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
Go to Top of Page

Evan
Administrator

34585 Posts

Posted - October 29 2019 :  1:42:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When I selected the Win 115 gr +P+ for our P7's and MP 5's at SRT the Jello Junkies hooted and hollered as this load would not penetrate 12" in gelatin. In a cop killer, two rounds went 17" and expanded to .70 caliber!

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

Go to Top of Page

Arvinator
Advanced Member

USA
5465 Posts

Posted - October 29 2019 :  9:42:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Three absolutes: Taxes, Death, & God's Judgement on where we spend our Eternity.

I've seen a couple of people shot by boolets. Some died when I thought they'd live and some lived when I thought they should have died. I've seen ammo test and done a few informal poor boy testing on my own in Ziploc water bags, buckets of sand, & shooting old body armor panels.

The magic word is reliability, then placement me thinks.

I do appreciate all the testing so I can guesstimate how a round may work...

Be honest, fair, and always prepared...
Go to Top of Page

Badge
Advanced Member

USA
1715 Posts

Posted - October 29 2019 :  11:27:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ralph, Chris,.. I'm with you in this regard. I provided those books to some forward thinking former tactical officers in our Training division and they also used them to choose our new duty round which is still being issued over 20 years later. They flat work.

MSS
Go to Top of Page

Evan
Administrator

34585 Posts

Posted - October 30 2019 :  11:18:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jim-I remember the Norma .45 load. We had a local gunsmith who would take the Commando .45 ACP carbine and make them street worthy. Shot up a brand new Cadillac with several rascals in it. Missed them but the Norma load went thru the Caddie end to end and just peeled the exposed lead off

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

Go to Top of Page

Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3658 Posts

Posted - October 30 2019 :  5:07:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

a large number of rounds fired in a handgun fight never hit the intended target, I don't know why people get so wrapped up in pentration or expansion.

Seems like a lot of rounds down range addressed " to whom it may concern"

But add skin to the list of things that ain't ballistic gelatin, going in and out layers of skin can account for 3-4 inches of gel penetration

With tearing the skin at the exit typically being difficult, it might account for handgun bullets not exiting





It's the rounds that do hit the target that count. And in that case, penetration and expansion becomes significant. If it wasn't, we'd all be shooting .380 ball.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
Go to Top of Page

Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5681 Posts

Posted - October 30 2019 :  8:59:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Said it before, still believe it: I figure if a load works well in real life, and behaves in a consistent way in jello, then a new load comes along and behaves the same way in jello, it should be reasonable to expect that new load to work well in real life. That is shy country boy logic.
But this shy country boy will still be selfish, and let somebody else prove the point with that new load until it earns a good reputation. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
Go to Top of Page

Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3658 Posts

Posted - October 31 2019 :  1:45:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

Why worry about over penetration when your shooting up the neighborhood anyway

It was all tongue in check on any case, loosen up



Your "tongue in cheek" ...as usual... is a bit acerbic and difficult to decipher. And, some of us don't shoot up the neighborhood anyway... we tend to aim.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.

Edited by - Chris Christian on October 31 2019 1:45:35 PM
Go to Top of Page

Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3658 Posts

Posted - October 31 2019 :  3:38:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

why let such simple things bother you

You'ld be ahead to stop reading what I post

It can't be your all consuming desire to learn, you know it all already......



GW, I see that while effective and humorously delivered "tongue in cheek" commentary has escaped you, snark has not.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
Go to Top of Page

jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5543 Posts

Posted - November 02 2019 :  11:45:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

quote:
Originally posted by gw

why let such simple things bother you

You'ld be ahead to stop reading what I post

It can't be your all consuming desire to learn, you know it all already......



GW, I see that while effective and humorously delivered "tongue in cheek" commentary has escaped you, snark has not.

Hey you boys in the back seat! Am I gonna have to pull this car over??

jle3030
Go to Top of Page

Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9838 Posts

Posted - November 08 2019 :  08:21:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Evan

Jim-I remember the Norma .45 load. We had a local gunsmith who would take the Commando .45 ACP carbine and make them street worthy. Shot up a brand new Cadillac with several rascals in it. Missed them but the Norma load went thru the Caddie end to end and just peeled the exposed lead off



Yeah, we ran across some old junk cars (latest was a 1958) - that Norma load would sure penetrate auto bodies!

Jim

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
Go to Top of Page

Evan
Administrator

34585 Posts

Posted - November 08 2019 :  2:15:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Norma' 9MM jhp produced similar expansion and penetration results. I was standing behind a vice officer when he shot a still operator in the head with a 90gr jhp Super Vel I never imagined the human body could hold so much blood!

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

Go to Top of Page
   Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
StoppingPower.net Forums © 2002-16 StoppingPower.net, Inc. Go To Top Of Page
Thispagewasgeneratedin0.17seconds. Snitz Forums 2000