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oldmuleskinner
Senior Member

905 Posts

Posted - August 06 2019 :  02:38:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Because of the two recent shootings in El Paso and Ohio, I am thinking that it might be a good idea to get a few .223 bolt action rifles in our family. Who knows where the reaction to the evil assault rifles will go this time around.

Just curious what makes and models you guys would suggest. I think that cost would be the main concern that I would have, since I would like to have at least one in each of my families.

Factory iron sights would also be desirable, but I think I would also want to see them with a mounted scope.

Since the .223 has minimal recoil, I think that I would want one that is not too heavy.

Each of us is an innkeeper, and we decide if there is room for Jesus.
Neal A. Maxwell

gw
Advanced Member

4744 Posts

Posted - August 06 2019 :  03:51:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ruger or Savage Scout rifle (Ruger might be discontinued)

Ruger also makes the American Ranch rifle that accepts AR magazines, no sights but cheap.

the one I bought recently is a Savage 110 Hog Hunter, iron sights and detachable magazine.

I would have went with a 110 Scout, but the Hog Hunter was used and a good price.

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Arvinator
Advanced Member

USA
5449 Posts

Posted - August 06 2019 :  07:16:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Look for slightly used older models, with iron sights. The Ruger M77 Gunsite has been discontinued from what I see, and think that was a shame.
My Howa heavy barrel bolt .223 is scope only, but I'm seriously considering a Savage or Ruger American as a lighter/easier to carry version.

Be honest, fair, and always prepared...
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5647 Posts

Posted - August 06 2019 :  07:40:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I recently picked up a Mossberg MVP Patrol model, has iron sights, uses AR mags, light, compact, and plenty accurate for field and social work. Only drawback is on mine, the bolt tends to catch at the rear of the receiver if it's not rotated all the way up; I think it will be an easy fix by stoning that part of the receiver to give it more bevel (according to my rifle guru, anyway). I've not heard of others having that issue, so maybe I just got a lemon.

Also fond of the Ruger American Ranch model. I have two, .22LR and .308, and they're as handy as the little Mossberg, but without the iron sights and the bolt problem. Irons could be glued on, at an added expense, if necessary. Wasn't aware they were making one to take AR mags; that would be handy.

There's $.02 to spend. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - August 06 2019 :  07:57:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just a quick Google found two things: Cheaper Than Dirt shows various versions of the Mossberg MVP scout sized rifle with iron sights, 5.56 caliber, for $410 - $548.

I'm also seeing the online aficionados debating the .223 (match loads/accuracy; 'less safe' shooting 5.56 ammo) vs. 5.56 ('less accurate'/and handles any and all .223/5.56 ammo). Then they start getting deep into the weeds. "You can buy a .223 and rebarrel it to 5.56 or have it modified with the Wylde chamber option..."

Considering the circumstances under which said rifle might be used, I'd consider 5.56 chambering a no brainer.

And that's about the sum total of my knowledge on the subject, so I'll sit back and listen.

Jeff.

jle3030

Edited by - jle3030 on August 06 2019 08:01:08 AM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9814 Posts

Posted - August 06 2019 :  08:19:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A bolt action .223 is fine but I'd likely get a 5.56.

I saw a Ruger American the other day labled 5.56 and the Mossberg MVP is also in 5.56 and even has a 1 in 7" twist and takes M-16 mags.

I'm not sure what the Ruger takes, the last one I checked took Mini-14 mags. Maybe they have one that takes M-16 mags as well?

I see deals on used Americans from time to time under $300 and they all seem to shoot good.

A CZ 537 has a lot of class if that is what you are after and I'm not sure they still make it but the Mauser Mk X "Mini" in .223 is not a bad gun - I've had two of those.

While you are at it Ruger and CZ both make a carbine in 7.62 X 39 which are pretty neat.

Jim H.

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!

Edited by - Jim Higginbotham on August 06 2019 08:22:15 AM
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840
Junior Member

USA
188 Posts

Posted - August 06 2019 :  09:17:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Regardless of any shootings that draw radical political discussion, it never hurts to have a serviceable bolt action rifle. Currently I have the Mossberg MVP Predator. Very handy, functional, and also very accurate. Topped with a 3X9 but no open sights. I plan to add an MVP Patrol which does have open sights. I have no need/desire for a longer-length barrel.

I tried a few other non-semi's in .223/5.56 and the MVP felt the best and functioned the best ... for me. I have always favored shorter-length rifles and shotguns and it tapped my wallet and satisfied me. All of my outfit can handle social needs if called upon, and all of my shorter-length "long guns" have served me well for all types of hunting needs, too.

840

Yes, I too have my semi-autos, but folks need to credit the serious versatility of a good revolver with a serviceable load.
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840
Junior Member

USA
188 Posts

Posted - August 06 2019 :  09:31:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

While you are at it Ruger and CZ both make a carbine in 7.62 X 39 which are pretty neat.

Jim H.

A good reminder, Jim. I almost snagged a CZ last fall in this caliber but an injury messed up my neck and shoulder and I had surgery. I let them slit my throat and mend and fuse a chunk of my cervical spine so I was out-of-commission for a while and held off on a purchase. A year later I have about 65% to 80% of my right shoulder and arm strength and mobility restored, but that's about the best it will do. I need to keep my caliber choices 'handleable.'

The 7.62X39 can be a decent caliber for my needs (had it before) and am trying to pick between a CZ and Ruger. Your comment made me check my shopping budget.

840

Yes, I too have my semi-autos, but folks need to credit the serious versatility of a good revolver with a serviceable load.

Edited by - 840 on August 06 2019 6:10:42 PM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9814 Posts

Posted - August 12 2019 :  08:33:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
840;

I'm sorry to hear about your injury - life is hard enough without something extra.

I don't own a Ruger American, but I've shot several. They seem to be quite a deal.

I cannot really explain not owning one. We ran into a used, but unfired in the box, .308 last year at the LGS for $230 - my only excuse is that I have more .308s than I can use right now.

I have been looking for a deal on a .300 Blackout though.

Jim

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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Russ Larges
Moderator

USA
2410 Posts

Posted - August 13 2019 :  5:10:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I picked up a Stevens bolt action in .223 awhile back and put a Tasco 6x24 on it. I know that's not a top dollar scope but it works for me. The gun shoots just over 1" at a 100 yards with fmj plinking reloads. I have not tried to find it's favorite load yet. As for now it is a back up the ar's.
Russ

The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper
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Craig
Advanced Member

USA
1100 Posts

Posted - August 13 2019 :  9:51:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've got a Savage .308 but a long 26" heavy barrel. So I've also been looking towards a handy "carbine" type in 5.56. The Ruger Scout is showing up out here at a pretty good price at some stores,which might support the idea it's going to go away. It's the older Mauser type controlled feed Model 77 (?) type action. Doesn't take AR mags. That might be something hurting sales? The American Ranch does. Relatively inexpensive, synthetic stock, different action. I'm looking at the CZ 527s as well. Especially the carbine. The carbine is also available in 7.62 x 39. Usually very good looking Turkish walnut stocks. Noticeably more expensive than the Rugers. Also not an AR mag. The .223 is CIPA spec so no problem with 5.56. The Ruger has a 70 degree bolt throw vs 90 degree on the CZs so more flexibility in handling scopes. The practical side says Ruger. The "That's a fine looking firearm!." side says CZ.
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Craig
Advanced Member

USA
1100 Posts

Posted - August 13 2019 :  9:55:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looking back to the OP, the CZ carbine has iron sights, the Ruger doesn't. I just picked up a CZ .22 with irons and am waiting for better weather to get out and do some more varied shooting. Indoors local it's been fine but that's 50 feet. I'm at the age that irons may not be suitable for serious work for me now. Retired now so more time to get out and go but 100 degree weather by myself in the desert isn't inviting.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9814 Posts

Posted - August 15 2019 :  09:48:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Craig;

One of the most frustrating things about modern rifles is that so many of them come without iron sights, plastic sights aren't much better.

That was one reason I bought the CZ in 7.62 X 39 - it was short, handy and had iron sights.

Jim H.

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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WR Moore
Senior Member

USA
993 Posts

Posted - August 15 2019 :  10:01:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
After reading this thread I poked around at a couple websites. It does seem that the Ruger Scout is now only in .308. Mossberg has both a Scout and a Patrol rifle. The Patrol comes with irons and a flash supressor. Caliber was given as .223 no twist rate listed.

There's a NZ cop on another board who surrendered his Mini 14 and is planning on buying a Henry Long Ranger in .223 as a replacement.

Beware the politically obsessed. They are often bright and interesting, but they have something missing in their natures, there is a hole, an empty place and they use politics to fill it up. It leaves them somehow misshapen. Peggy Noonan



Edited by - WR Moore on August 15 2019 10:02:28 AM
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840
Junior Member

USA
188 Posts

Posted - August 15 2019 :  11:23:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Craig
The practical side says Ruger. The "That's a fine looking firearm!." side says CZ.

That's exactly how I look at those two offerings. The CZ still gets that look, when I can find one, in the 'stubby' .308 round. I don't NEED one in .223, but I got to thinking about a matched pair of carbines w/iron sights in .223/5.56 and 7.62X39. I might need a fatter wallet before I go shopping.

'840'

Yes, I too have my semi-autos, but folks need to credit the serious versatility of a good revolver with a serviceable load.

Edited by - 840 on August 15 2019 11:29:30 AM
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Pop Pop
Advanced Member

USA
1123 Posts

Posted - August 15 2019 :  2:47:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I got several boxes of 223 in storage, but would not spend money on a 223 bolt gun. I really don't like the caliber. You guys go for it. I will trade my ammo for a larger caliber lever gun though.

Pop Pop
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9814 Posts

Posted - August 15 2019 :  8:23:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pop Pop

I got several boxes of 223 in storage, but would not spend money on a 223 bolt gun. I really don't like the caliber. You guys go for it. I will trade my ammo for a larger caliber lever gun though.



I like .223 / 5.56 just fine...for stuff that weighs less than 50 lbs. For bigger stuff, not so much (yeah, I know it has worked out fine for some people but I require a more sure thing for self defense or feeding myself in a pinch).

Yes, I've even killed bigger stuff with it, but if you give me the choice I want something bigger - even if it is only a big bore pistol. I've never had a deer drop to the shot with a .223, I've had close to a dozen drop instanly with .45 Auto (but that is certainly not 100%).

However, that is not all there is to that story - The 223s were all "A-zone" hits but that covers too much territory. The .45s were mostly better placed and most were shorter range.

Jim H.

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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Pop Pop
Advanced Member

USA
1123 Posts

Posted - August 16 2019 :  09:06:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
IMO, the 243 is a superior rifle over the 223. My father had one, with a Weaver scope, that he deer hunted with in the 60's. It was a lever action and it was very accurate. I used his 30 06 which was not scoped but never seen many deer around eastern KY, in those days. I never actually got a shot at one before I had to take my senior trip over seas to the Jungle in 66.

For small critters I have a Marlin bolt action 22 Magnum rifle. I had to use it on some dogs that were killing our calves, on a regular basis, after they were born. If they didn't kill them they would chew their ears and tails off. My father in law was a farmer and those losses were very detrimental to his livelihood. The farm we had them on was in the suburbs and people would not keep their dogs up as we circulated papers, in the community, to try and get the word out what the dogs were doing. They kept attacking the calves until we dispatched 7 dogs one morning at daylight. Never lost another calf. That 22 mag left a Red Bone Hound looking like a stovepipe. I mean it cleaned him out as I hit him, as he was running at me, just below his head and in the chest. I have used the magnum on other animals and the rifle surprised me how much more powerful it was over a regular 22 LR. We hated killing the dogs but could not continue to loos calves. Pap lost 11 caves over a 4 week period.

I know a 223 has more power than the 22 mag, but if given the choice the 243 would be my choice over the 223. Dad and I regularly used a heavier bullet in the 243, than the 223 is usually loaded with. We reloaded our own ammo for the 243 and 06. Did a lot of shooting and experimenting with it. I know these calibers are old school, but so am I. One of the reasons I am carrying a 7 shot revolver.

OLdmuleskinner, you follow your heart. Ain't choice great!

Edited to add; I gave my Weatherby Vanguard Gen 1, in 30 06, to my grandson, for Christmas, last year. The newer Gen 2 Vanguard is guaranteed, by Weatherby, to be 1" moa at a 100 yards. Mason hunts on his grandpa's farm where they live. Killed a large 9 point and doe last year. Now I am without a deer rifle as I also gave my Marlin 30 30 to another grandson. I feel naked, "you know what I mean"? First time since I got out of the military I haven't owned a good deer rifle. I don't hunt any longer. I guess that is really what is bothering me.

Pop Pop

Edited by - Pop Pop on August 16 2019 10:33:38 AM
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - August 16 2019 :  10:25:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree that in a bolt gun the .243 has more to offer than the .223/5.56. I have long thought the Scout rifle concept was made to order for .243. However, I see the bolt gun under discussion here as a possible replacement for the AR's, in the event they are banned. It's easier and cheaper to stockpile .223/5.56 than .243. Anyone who has an AR likely already has a good supply of ammo. Then there is the possibility (some guns) of magazine interchangeability with the AR.

Having made that point, however, I would expect the standard AR magazines to be banned before the rifles themselves. Taking the millions of existing rifles out of the hands of honest citizens would be a heavy lift for weak kneed politicians.

I notice the current Manchin - Toomey trial balloon proposes a ban on manufacture and sale of AR's, et.al., but grandfathers in the existing rifles. Yeah, that'll work! Just like in 1994. But of course any intermediate laws the government enacts must be designed to fail. So they can start demanding further "common sense" incursions at a later date. Like as soon as the ink of the President's signature is dry on the latest gun bill.

I believe those of us who argue that the proposed antigun laws will do nothing to stop crime, terrorism, or active shooters are missing the point. Those laws are not meant to work; just to condition the public and locate the guns.

Jeff

jle3030

Edited by - jle3030 on August 16 2019 10:46:43 AM
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3617 Posts

Posted - August 16 2019 :  11:17:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There's nothing wrong with a good bolt gun. But, for personal protection I believe I'd rather have a lever gun -- faster repeat shots. I'm not familiar with that product line but there are probably some available in .223, and I believe there are some (or certainly will be if they ban semi-autos ... that will accept detachable magazines that could speed reloading.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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gw
Advanced Member

4744 Posts

Posted - August 16 2019 :  2:57:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

I agree that in a bolt gun the .243 has more to offer than the .223/5.56. I have long thought the Scout rifle concept was made to order for .243. However, I see the bolt gun under discussion here as a possible replacement for the AR's, in the event they are banned. It's easier and cheaper to stockpile .223/5.56 than .243. Anyone who has an AR likely already has a good supply of ammo. Then there is the possibility (some guns) of magazine interchangeability with the AR.

Having made that point, however, I would expect the standard AR magazines to be banned before the rifles themselves. Taking the millions of existing rifles out of the hands of honest citizens would be a heavy lift for weak kneed politicians.

I notice the current Manchin - Toomey trial balloon proposes a ban on manufacture and sale of bAR's, et.al., but grandfathers in the existing rifles. Yeah, that'll work! Just like in 1994. But of course any intermediate laws the government enacts must be designed to fail. So they can start demanding further "common sense" incursions at a later date. Like as soon as the ink of the President's signature is dry on the latest gun bill.

I believe those of us who argue that the proposed antigun laws will do nothing to stop crime, terrorism, or active shooters are missing the point. Those laws are not meant to work; just to condition the public and locate the guns.

Jeff



these laws aren't designed to be enforced, they're just "do something" nonsense

makes the suckers that keep voting for these politicians feel good

the Fed laws grandfather existing rifles and magazines, magazines manufactured after will be dated

accesories that could be used to create an illegal weapon, like a collapsable stock, will be banned and illegal to own

state and local local laws will be more restrictive, many have already been created

waiting until 2020 might be too late, if a Democrat gets in, the run on guns and ammo will dry up supply quick

grandfathered rifles and magazines will increase in value

the gungrabbers will try not to make the same mistakes they did in '94

all they really need to do is move semi automatics to the NFA list for regulation

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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oldmuleskinner
Senior Member

905 Posts

Posted - August 16 2019 :  5:34:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have several bolt guns in larger calibers. I am thinking of a .223 in a bolt rifle to utilize the plentiful ammo that I already have. It would also be great for training a younger shooter. Lots of noise, but minimal recoil.

I also think that it would be a great rifle for coyotes and other small vermin.

In Washington, the only larger game that a .22 centerfire caliber is legal for is cougars. Deer, elk, bear, moose, goats and sheep require at least .24 caliber.

Each of us is an innkeeper, and we decide if there is room for Jesus.
Neal A. Maxwell
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WR Moore
Senior Member

USA
993 Posts

Posted - August 17 2019 :  11:11:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's dawned upon me that it wouldn't take a lot of work to create an upper that's a straight pull bolt action. Reach from the trigger might be a bit much, but if the recoil spring was retained, you wouldn't have to manually return the bolt to battery. Come to think of it, the uppers with the charging handle on the side and the paired carriers already exist. All you'd need is a barrel with no gas port. Not sure what the legal status would be since the lower is technically the firearm, but boy wouldn't that frost the antis?

Beware the politically obsessed. They are often bright and interesting, but they have something missing in their natures, there is a hole, an empty place and they use politics to fill it up. It leaves them somehow misshapen. Peggy Noonan



Edited by - WR Moore on August 17 2019 11:20:37 AM
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Craig
Advanced Member

USA
1100 Posts

Posted - August 18 2019 :  11:52:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah I think the ease of conversion of many semi-autos to a straight pull sort of design has probably escaped a lot of non-gun people.It's already there on the various M1ish types, the AR has that pesky rear charging handle. They also could single feed with some thought, the AR, not so easy.
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WR Moore
Senior Member

USA
993 Posts

Posted - August 19 2019 :  10:39:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Allegedly, the ARs in the UK have been modified to lock the bolt back after extraction/ejection. I'd like to see how they do that, I'm guessing some modification of the bolt stop. The idea being that it requires a manual action to load the next round.

Way back when, we modified a fair number of M1 carbines to bolt guns for use a deer rifles in PA. Simple part change in the piston area.

Beware the politically obsessed. They are often bright and interesting, but they have something missing in their natures, there is a hole, an empty place and they use politics to fill it up. It leaves them somehow misshapen. Peggy Noonan


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gw
Advanced Member

4744 Posts

Posted - August 19 2019 :  3:41:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
straight pull and pump action AR uppers already exist

no big demand in the US, that might change

you could just permanently plug the gas port

that might become a common procedure in the future too.....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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