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Russ Larges
Moderator

USA
2410 Posts

Posted - August 02 2019 :  8:14:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I tried my 1991 with a load of 200 swc. It jammed at least once with every mag I had but one, that one is a shooting star, it would push the nose into the top of the barrel and then the slide would slip over the round and jam very bad. It was really stuck and took some good force to make it move and clear it. I would have lock the slide back and then drop the magazine to get the round out. Some of them had a dent from the slide. I suppose I need different mags, but I found a Glock 21 that followed me home today. Paid 350.00 for a very nice gen 3. I will work with the colt some more as I never had this problem before. I could use help with this.
Russ
P.S. with the colt not with the glock.

The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper

Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3617 Posts

Posted - August 03 2019 :  06:42:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Are they factory loads or reloads? If reloads, try varying your overall length. The type of tip up jam you described could be a short round. You might start by loading a few longer... then try shorter.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9814 Posts

Posted - August 03 2019 :  08:41:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

Are they factory loads or reloads? If reloads, try varying your overall length. The type of tip up jam you described could be a short round. You might start by loading a few longer... then try shorter.




Who makes the bullet and what weight is it? And are your springs stock or within 2 lbs? What is the OAL length on the cartridge.

Either what Chris said or the loads are too light and the slide is "short stroking" (catching the cartridge in the cartridge groove rather than behind the rim). This can also be caused by too much recoil spring. That is almost always the thing that causes the "nose up" malfunction (in any design - it is the most common stoppage I see in a Glock - I have pictures if you need them Russ).

to Chris' point; OAL cartridge length should be at least 1.25" - there are a plethora of SWC which are poorly designed which do not work in anything unless you lighten the springs and slow the slide down (a bad idea).

There are some exceptions, a wide flat point that hits the feed ramp at the same place as ball (or a long narrow flat point that does the same) is usually OK.

I find a wide range of flat nose ammo, from the Keith (true Keith not the short 250 gr. stuff you normally see) to the lee 260 feeds like butter in almost any 1911 - whether it is a stock G.I. model or not (you do have to size them down to about .451 so they don't bulge the cases). Those have a shorter overall length but they hit the feed ramp the same place ball does.


Jim H.



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Edited by - Jim Higginbotham on August 03 2019 08:43:27 AM
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Russ Larges
Moderator

USA
2410 Posts

Posted - August 03 2019 :  10:50:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the help guys. The springs are stock, the bullets are my own cast Lyman 452460s. The load clocks averages at 800 fps. I just measured the oal and found it to be 1.190-1.205 I was careless in seating the bullets, I just looked for a touch of the shoulder above the case mouth. It may well be that some of them are to short.
I had good luck with the 215 wide flat nose the Jim talked about and also with 185 jacketed hollowpoints and of course factory ball so I was disappointed with the 200 swc. I will try some loaded longer.
Thanks again.
Russ

The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper
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zeke
Average Member

282 Posts

Posted - August 03 2019 :  11:37:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looks like a "short nose" lswc, and not the style 68 (long nose)that gets loaded out to around 1.250-1.258. Am using memory for the number 68, and may need to be corrected. Have found the short noses more problematic than the "long nose" style. Am using own generic terms for short nose and long nose.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3617 Posts

Posted - August 03 2019 :  12:30:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Russ, 800 fps with a 200-grain SWC might be a bit light for stock springs. But the OAL you noted could easily be the problem... the short bullet hits low on the feed ramp and instead of finding the chamber it kicks up into the barrel hood and locks. Try a longer length. Jim suggested 1.25 and that might do it.
Back in my bullseye days the 185 short nose factory "match" wadcutters
often required re-shaping the standard 1911 Browning feed ramp. I think they called it "throating", but Jim would know more about that than me.
I just shot whatever the Navy armorers handed me.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9814 Posts

Posted - August 04 2019 :  06:48:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Russ Larges

Thanks for the help guys. The springs are stock, the bullets are my own cast Lyman 452460s. The load clocks averages at 800 fps. I just measured the oal and found it to be 1.190-1.205 I was careless in seating the bullets, I just looked for a touch of the shoulder above the case mouth. It may well be that some of them are to short.
I had good luck with the 215 wide flat nose the Jim talked about and also with 185 jacketed hollowpoints and of course factory ball so I was disappointed with the 200 swc. I will try some loaded longer.
Thanks again.
Russ




One of the first molds I bought for .45 (after round nose) was a 215 gr. Lyman mold. I forget the number but the nose was too short for its narrow meplat. It sorta looks like that mold but I could not find a good picutre of it on the lyman website. Mine was slightly differnt in the back - it was beveled, but the nose is the key.

The reason that 215 I mention worked before is that it has a very wide meplate, much like the Keith bullet, and it hit the feed ramp inthe same place ball works. You can load those shorter.

The H&G 68 has a much smaller meplat and to hit the ramp at the same place as ball it has to be loaded longer - my lyman mold for the SWC has the same size diameter mold but cannot be loaded long becuase the shoulder then jams into the leade.

I forget what I loaded it to in length for the best feeding in a 1911 but even at its best it did not pass muster and it would depend on the size of the leade in the particular barrel if it would work at all.

Jim H.




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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9814 Posts

Posted - August 04 2019 :  07:10:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Russ;

I did some more looking. Discussion on several cast bullet forums sort of mention the short nose and the problems with OAL with this particular mold. Montana bullet Works has bullets from the mold and you can compare that to the H&G 68 - which works really well in 1911s - even my stock 1911s and 1911a1s (in Glocks, M&Ps, XDs and Tanfoglios not so much).

They also sell a version of the wide meplat 215 SWC - turns out it is a Saeco #58

Hope this helps

Jim H.

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gw
Advanced Member

4744 Posts

Posted - August 04 2019 :  6:00:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i think you're discribing a 3 point "jam", most new Colts I pick up are "riding the link"

"Three points...binding between the breechface, the barrel throat, and the underside of the barrel chamber. Forget what you've heard about the overall length of the round for a minute. If the 1911 is correctly set-up, it's more forgiving of cartridge length variation than many would have you believe.

Consider the barrel link. If the link is correctly fitted to a correctly shaped and in-spec lower lug, there probably won't be a three-point jam. Why?

As the cartridge strips from the magazine and strikes the barrel throat, it pushes the barrel forward. Due to the tilting-barrel design, when the barrel moves forward...it also moves upward. If the barrel is correctly fitted, this upward movement is provided by the front radius of the barrel being cammed up by the slidestop pin, and the rise is gradual.

Want to feel your pistol feed more smoothly than you ever imagined that it could? Load 3 or 4 rounds in a magazine...lock the slide to the rear... push the muzzle against the edge of a table, and ride the slide forward... not in slow-motion...but not at full speed either. You won't feel a bump... no hesitation...no stem bind as the round chambers. None.

Tripp Research has attempted to address this issue by designing a magazine that presents the cartridge at a lower angle as it enters the barrel throat. While this approach will often work...it's a band-aid that masks the true nature of the problem...and it doesn't always work.

Now, consider the incorrectly dimensioned lower lug. If the link is the correct length for vertical lockup, where the lower lug and slidestop pin bear the load of the vertical lock...but the link is long enough to hold the pin away from the front radius, you have the makings of a 3-point jam.

The condition is known as "Riding the Link". When the barrel rides the link around the lower lug's radius, it causes the barrel to rise early in relation to the slide's position...when the round is just entering the throat. In addition to rising too soon, it moves upward too abruptly, which puts the slide and cartridge even further behind in its approach to battery. Bang! A three point jam has just taken place. (Many factory-built pistols these days have this condition.) When you get a pistol that seems to feed everything that you put in it without a glitch...look at the link to see why.

Okay...You've plunked down your long green for a factory pistol that doesn't have a correctly dimensioned lug...The barrel is riding the link, and your pistol produces a return to battery stoppage often enough to destroy your confidence in it. You don't have the money for a gunsmith to refit the lug or another barrel...and you either can't afford or justify buying another pistol on the chance that this one will be "right". What to do?

Often the advice is to install a heavier recoil spring in hopes of using enough force to overcome the jam...This is not only the wrong approach, it usually doesn't completely eliminate the stoppage...It just makes it less frequent...at least until the recoil spring starts to get tired. You still have a nagging doubt that the gun will perform in an emergency. The ramp and throat have already been tended to.

There are a couple of approaches that will usually work. If the barrel is standing on the link in vertical lock, you can try a shorter link. You're limited to about .003 inch shorter here. If the shorter link will make it around the front radius without getting into a bind, you can go with that and likely cure the problem. A shorter link will have the effect of unlocking the barrel a little earlier...which can possibly be an extraction issue if it unlocks TOO early..while the chamber pressures still have the case expanded, but this will probably happen only if the unlock timing is right on the line anyway."

you might also be on the right track buying the Glock......

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5647 Posts

Posted - August 04 2019 :  9:22:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Down the years, when I got introduced to 1911's, I musta been charmed. Of maybe a half dozen I owned between 1980 and ~1994 or so, only one I can recall gave me any trouble--and that was with the old 'flying ashtray' round with a big HP bullet. Even the cheap, nasty EMT Hardballer fed everything I tried.

I'm sorry Russ is having problems, but I'm learning a lot from all the responses. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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WR Moore
Senior Member

USA
993 Posts

Posted - August 10 2019 :  8:51:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Decades ago I discovered that Metalform mags not only work great-sometimes better than some "names" at 2 or 3 times the price-biut are reasonably priced. Some wadcutters need to be at a specific length:the Hornaday 200 gr CT bullet being one of them. If you don't do that one at exactly the book OAL, you'll have issues. The long nose SWCs seem to work better than the short ones in my experience.

Have you checked OAL before and after attempting to chamber the rounds? You might be getting bullet setback. If so, you want to check your expander adjustemnt and crimping die adjustments. I was having an issue last year and the techs at Dillon advised that over taper crimping can actually cause the case to move away from the bullet (you're losing the friction fit).


Beware the politically obsessed. They are often bright and interesting, but they have something missing in their natures, there is a hole, an empty place and they use politics to fill it up. It leaves them somehow misshapen. Peggy Noonan


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Russ Larges
Moderator

USA
2410 Posts

Posted - August 10 2019 :  9:15:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have been out of town for awhile and not shooting the .45 at all. I will load some different oal loads and switch from Unique to tight group as I have a can of that, I will let you know what happens. As I said I loaded this bullet over a stiff load of Unique and had no trouble with both series 70 and 80 colt 1911s, this was at least 30 years ago. Man, I am getting old.
Russ

The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper
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Russ Larges
Moderator

USA
2410 Posts

Posted - August 13 2019 :  5:01:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, I made up some loads with tightgroup and seated the swc out to 1.215 give or take some. The gun ran fine for 3 mags I know that is not a good test so I will shoot it next Monday night at the local IPSC club. I don't like to shoot the .45 there as I lose the brass and that bothers me some. I suppose I have enough brass to last my life time, still I hate to lose any.
Russ
Had to correct the seating depth from 1.15 to 1.215.

The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper

Edited by - Russ Larges on August 13 2019 8:37:34 PM
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BatteryOaksBilly
Junior Member

USA
211 Posts

Posted - August 22 2019 :  6:22:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill Wilson said in his book that he was perplexed by folks that would spend $2,000 [1980s] on a gun and then hunt high and low for a round it would Not feed.
We have about 25 1911s here. They all get fed ball and they all work..always. Life can be easy but you have to allow it.

Billy Bruton..Carry every step..Shoot every day!
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