StoppingPower.net Forums
Home
Forums
Commentary
H&S
About
StoppingPower.net Forums

StoppingPower.net Forums - Departments and 9MM
StoppingPower.net Forums
StoppingPower.net Forums
Forums Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ | Invite a friend
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 The Real World
 Cop Corner
 Departments and 9MM
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author  Topic Next Topic  

Arvinator
Advanced Member

USA
5393 Posts

Posted - June 06 2019 :  07:31:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm seeing many departments switch back to the 9MM as primary caliber for sidearm. The FBI, many small departments and soon the Arkansas State Police.
I've heard rapid follow up shots, higher scores, and more rounds on the duty belt.

I'm hoping this will put the odds more in the good guys favor.

I've personally would carry (when allowed) a 9MM over .40, loaded with +P or +P+ ammo.


Stay safe everyone.

Be honest, fair, and always prepared...

LittleBill
Advanced Member

5555 Posts

Posted - June 06 2019 :  09:27:04 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Could the hiring of more (smaller-statured) female officers have anything to do with it as well?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
Go to Top of Page

LittleBill
Advanced Member

5555 Posts

Posted - June 06 2019 :  11:34:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It certainly is interesting to observe the back-and-forth, trial-and-error process involved in caliber selection among the various LE agencies: 9mm, to 10mm, to ‘10mm lite’/.40S&W, .357SIG, and now, back to 9mm.

One wonders what factors are driving this process: the terminal effectiveness of the various rounds, or some other factor?

If one round is better in terms of stopping power— but officers have to work harder and put in more practice time in order to master it— what’s the answer?

More range time so officers can master it?

Or switch to a less-effective— but easier to shoot— round?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on June 06 2019 12:01:30 PM
Go to Top of Page

Evan
Administrator

34469 Posts

Posted - June 06 2019 :  12:10:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't understand one responding to their own posts.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

Go to Top of Page

LittleBill
Advanced Member

5555 Posts

Posted - June 06 2019 :  12:17:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
More thoughts come to mind...


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on June 06 2019 12:19:14 PM
Go to Top of Page

Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3570 Posts

Posted - June 06 2019 :  12:36:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Regardless of the caliber used, hits are the only thing that count in the "positive" column. The.357 SIG, .45, 10mm, and .40 are very effective handgun calibers with the right ammo. The 9mm, with the right ammo, is also very effective. Given that (from my personal experience) most cops are not "gun people" ... and do as little shooting/practice/training as they can get away with... the shift to the lower-recoiling/higher capacity 9mm makes sense.

The ammo is also a bit cheaper, a consideration the "bean counters" place large faith in.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
Go to Top of Page

gauchobill
Advanced Member

1127 Posts

Posted - June 06 2019 :  1:49:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Seems to me the gun and ammo manufacturers have a big stake in massaging the subject of ammo selection. All you have to do is watch the continuous marketing/switching going on in the gun media.
A few years back, Florida and Georgia state troopers carried the .45 lite or whatever it was called. Why this caliber ever came to birth mystifies me. If the increasing population of female LEOs needed something lighter why not fall back to the 9mm or give a rebirth to the .38 Super.

The same can be said for hunting rifle ammo. Look at the constellation of .300 Magnum varieties; the development of 7mm alternatives: 7mm08, .284, several 7mm Magnums, .280 Remington, .243 Win., 244 Remington, 25-06, two new 6.5 creations, .35 Remington, .351 Winchester, a couple of .338 magnums, and the now dead 8mm Remington Magnum caliber.

In each class of these caliber selections a similar variety of loads are available. For most of them there is little difference in performance in class.

I am still packing my 30-06 into the mountains of Colorado this fall to add another elk to my collection. It has taken all the big game in North America except the Grizzly/Brown bear but I wouldn't feel undergunned with it for the big bear with a good 200 grain bullet. And if I am in almost any other place in this world, I can find ammo for that rifle.
Go to Top of Page

Deputy25
Senior Member

USA
968 Posts

Posted - June 06 2019 :  10:08:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My department was exploring a transition from 357 SIG (G-31) to 9mm (G-17). Oddly enough, bids for 357 SIG ammo came in well below 9mm. We are staying with 357 SIG. Go figure.

Be the person your dog thinks you are.
Go to Top of Page

gw
Advanced Member

4664 Posts

Posted - June 06 2019 :  10:15:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gauchobill

Seems to me the gun and ammo manufacturers have a big stake in massaging the subject of ammo selection. All you have to do is watch the continuous marketing/switching going on in the gun media.
A few years back, Florida and Georgia state troopers carried the .45 lite or whatever it was called. Why this caliber ever came to birth mystifies me. If the increasing population of female LEOs needed something lighter why not fall back to the 9mm or give a rebirth to the .38 Super.

The same can be said for hunting rifle ammo. Look at the constellation of .300 Magnum varieties; the development of 7mm alternatives: 7mm08, .284, several 7mm Magnums, .280 Remington, .243 Win., 244 Remington, 25-06, two new 6.5 creations, .35 Remington, .351 Winchester, a couple of .338 magnums, and the now dead 8mm Remington Magnum caliber.

In each class of these caliber selections a similar variety of loads are available. For most of them there is little difference in performance in class.

I am still packing my 30-06 into the mountains of Colorado this fall to add another elk to my collection. It has taken all the big game in North America except the Grizzly/Brown bear but I wouldn't feel undergunned with it for the big bear with a good 200 grain bullet. And if I am in almost any other place in this world, I can find ammo for that rifle.



if we're talking about the .45 gap

Glock developed a cartridge that would equal the power of the.45 ACP, have a stronger case head to reduce the possibility of case neck blowouts, and shorter to fit in a more compact handgun.

an answer looking for a question

the.40 s&w was a compromise between agents that wanted a high capacity automatic and those that thought a large caliper heavy bullet was the answer

in the interim both 9mm and .45 acp was authorized

if you take the average of 9mm plus .45 you get .40 (.35 +.45 / 2 = .40)

I still think that's really as scientific as the selection was.

truth is with proper ammo the 9mm is effective and easier on the gun

the mystery is why it took so long to admit that....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
Go to Top of Page

JMAC
Average Member

USA
389 Posts

Posted - June 07 2019 :  4:13:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We are transitioning from the G22 Gen 4 to the G17 Gen 5 MOS in the next 90 days. For us, it comes down to...…..

- Very few officers are gun people these days.
- Doesn't have anything to do with physical stature.
- The 9mm, 40, .357 Sig, and .45 are all relatively marginal in a gunfight compared to a long gun.
- Less recoil, faster, and more accurate follow up shots.
- 20% reduction in the cost of training ammunition. This doesn't mean we will be seeing the savings. It means we are buying 20% more training ammunition.
Go to Top of Page

revjen45
Advanced Member

2329 Posts

Posted - June 12 2019 :  11:07:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When I was shopping for a new ECG in '04 I went to the gun show with a bad case of gun lust for a Steyr S40.
With none there, the choice came down to a S9 or Cz100, IOW the right model or the sought caliber.
I'm real glad I went with caliber. 9mm is cheaper to shoot and easier on arthritic hands.
After 15 years I'm pleased with my choice the S9. Alternate CC piece is an abbreviated .45.

Better to perish in the struggle for freedom than live to see defeat.
Go to Top of Page

Evan
Administrator

34469 Posts

Posted - June 12 2019 :  1:35:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As some on who spent 20 years with Detroit PD and then 5 1/2 years with NNSA I can tell you there are public reasons and then the real reasons.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

Go to Top of Page

jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5461 Posts

Posted - June 12 2019 :  4:58:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The bean counters are only interested in their beans and have no concept of the larger picture. My daughter tells of being the head of our city's police department training division during the past ammunition shortage. Contracts for ammo purchase were let on a quarterly basis; a bulk order for the entire department. It all went through her training section, Nationwide shortage of supply had the backorder time at four to six months. When the fall order was to arrive the invoice was slightly (less than $10 dollars IIRC) in excess of the contracted amount. Some bureaucrat at city hall saw the invoice discrepancy, flagged it, and refused/returned the entire shipment. The order was quickly enough restored and delivered, but the point is that some pencil pusher with his hands on the money faucet was willing to let the police department go without ammo for three months over a $10 dollar discrepancy between order and invoice.

Jeff

jle3030

Edited by - jle3030 on June 16 2019 5:56:47 PM
Go to Top of Page

stykshooter
Starting Member

21 Posts

Posted - June 14 2019 :  6:25:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was a young range officer working the range when my department transitioned from .357 revolvers to 9mm Smith & Wessons. We had several shootings with the 9mm's using premium ammunition, for the times, that were very disappointing. I remember recovering two of our bullets that went through a subject's chest, then a closet door and I recovered them in a windbreaker jacket hanging in the closet. No expansion or deformation. Then we transitioned to the .40 and happily carried it for 25 plus years. Last fall I once again transitioned our agency from Gen 4 Glock 22's to Gen 5 Glock 17's in 9mm. After doing a lot of testing with ATK and Winchester, plus on our own, I feel that some of the newer 9mm rounds will hold their own with most any .40 or .45 round. It comes down to bullet construction... things have come a long ways in the last 30 years. We are carrying a 127 grain +P+ round that has absolutely amazing terminal performance.

State bid ammunition prices allow me to purchase more 9mm than .40 for the same price, which translates to more trigger time for the officers. The lower recoil of the 9mm coupled with the accuracy and shootability of the Gen 5 G-17 has shown a dramatic increase in our officer's scores as well as their confidence.
Go to Top of Page

Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5586 Posts

Posted - June 14 2019 :  8:52:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now styk, you're gonna mess things up, using common sense like that. It may be time for some remedial training. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
Go to Top of Page

WR Moore
Senior Member

USA
963 Posts

Posted - June 16 2019 :  10:06:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I haven't seen this mentioned, so I'll bring it up: the gun makers developing their very own cartridge/gun and then going to departments and making the "Such a deal we have for you!" pitch. I heard well sourced rumors over the Virginia State Police change from 9 mm Sigs to .357 Sigs. They aren't the only case in history.

As for the low prices noted somewhere above on .357 Sig ammo prices, could be left over stock made for the tidal wave of demand that didn't happen.

Beware the politically obsessed. They are often bright and interesting, but they have something missing in their natures, there is a hole, an empty place and they use politics to fill it up. It leaves them somehow misshapen. Peggy Noonan


Go to Top of Page

Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3570 Posts

Posted - June 16 2019 :  11:36:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by WR Moore

I haven't seen this mentioned, so I'll bring it up: the gun makers developing their very own cartridge/gun and then going to departments and making the "Such a deal we have for you!" pitch. I heard well sourced rumors over the Virginia State Police change from 9 mm Sigs to .357 Sigs. They aren't the only case in history.

As for the low prices noted somewhere above on .357 Sig ammo prices, could be left over stock made for the tidal wave of demand that didn't happen.



Excellent point. The cop market is large, but not unified. The consumer market is larger, and sometimes gullible. When a maker can claim "X% of law enforcement agencies rely on our X gun"... they have a strong marketing tool to sell to the public.

From a long term standpoint, taking less profit from cops to get their advertising claim for the civilian market makes sense. Glock has made a career out of this.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
Go to Top of Page

stykshooter
Starting Member

21 Posts

Posted - June 17 2019 :  12:26:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Glock has made a career out of this"- Exactly

When I was head instructor for the regional academy I was constantly inundated with products from cleaning supplies, holsters, ammo, etc. Wanted me to give it a thumbs up so the various agencies would buy from the reps and then they could use that as marketing hype. An interesting aside.... there is a lot of weird crap that comes out that never makes it and most people have never heard of it. From sighting systems to cleaning supplies.
Go to Top of Page
   Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
StoppingPower.net Forums © 2002-16 StoppingPower.net, Inc. Go To Top Of Page
Thispagewasgeneratedin0.16seconds. Snitz Forums 2000