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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9831 Posts

Posted - May 25 2019 :  1:57:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I doubt it will be much use to anyone but I finally let curiosity get the better of me.

The son wanted to try out his L-frame 4" and recently ordered some Federal 180 gr JHPs (he hates light bullets worse than I do).

Surprisingly they got 1230 fps - I've had some 158s that were around that speed, indeed two boxes of federal 125 jhp got only 1270 from a different gun but most lots get over 1400.

We shot some of the 180s in water and the did not expand but the son wasn't expecting that anyway he just wanted a flat nose.

The next load was a factory 256 Winchester from my Ruger Hawkeye - it pushed its 60 gr. bullet at 2348 fps. It also smoked right through a 2 liter bottle of water lengthwise - something some 125 gr .357 loads will not do OTOH some do.

The 3rd esoteric load was Cor Bon 240 gr .44 AutoMag - this is the first time I've fired this gun as when I got it the thing it was all black an rusty from it factory box foam "melting" on the surface and I finally got around to cleaning it up.

This load got 1345, a little bit less than advertised but I'm happy with it as we learned not to push Automags too hard back in the 70s.


Jim H.

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Bill D
Advanced Member

USA
1244 Posts

Posted - May 28 2019 :  1:01:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Makes for an interesting read over the morning coffee....Bill

Bill D
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ajt
Average Member

USA
322 Posts

Posted - May 28 2019 :  1:57:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just made my day!

Go easy on the sugar in that coffee, Bill.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3656 Posts

Posted - May 28 2019 :  2:22:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
RE the 180 Federal JHP .357.
Some years ago, for some reason, I decided I wanted to take that load hunting. I had a 10-inch TC Contender barrel with a 2X scope to shoot it in. I did not chronograph the load, but I figured that from a 10-inch barrel it would be moving along (as we say in the South) "right smartly".
So... I wandered through an oak hammock, and a 100-pound hog happened to wander along right in front of me, broadside, at about 15-yards. I popped him right behind the shoulder in a perfect heart/lung shot.
The hog was unimpressed. He gave me a sideways glance and kept walking at his pace. So, I popped him again... same place. He remained unimpressed, and continued at his leisurely pace.
Yes... he was "technically dead" at that point. But, he didn't seem to realize it, or care. He kept walking. I followed. About 100 yards of casually wandering later he lay own and I popped him one more time in the back of the head. Now, he realized he was dead.
The "cleaning rack autopsy" showed the first two shots were perfect, and complete shoot throughs. But, it took a lot of walking and a third shot to the CNS, to convince Mr. Hog.
That... and a few other instances I witnessed as a guide... convinced me that the .357 magnum was not a cartridge I wished to use on my woods "shopping trips"

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9831 Posts

Posted - May 31 2019 :  6:45:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

RE the 180 Federal JHP .357.
Some years ago, for some reason, I decided I wanted to take that load hunting. I had a 10-inch TC Contender barrel with a 2X scope to shoot it in. I did not chronograph the load, but I figured that from a 10-inch barrel it would be moving along (as we say in the South) "right smartly".
So... I wandered through an oak hammock, and a 100-pound hog happened to wander along right in front of me, broadside, at about 15-yards. I popped him right behind the shoulder in a perfect heart/lung shot.
The hog was unimpressed. He gave me a sideways glance and kept walking at his pace. So, I popped him again... same place. He remained unimpressed, and continued at his leisurely pace.
Yes... he was "technically dead" at that point. But, he didn't seem to realize it, or care. He kept walking. I followed. About 100 yards of casually wandering later he lay own and I popped him one more time in the back of the head. Now, he realized he was dead.
The "cleaning rack autopsy" showed the first two shots were perfect, and complete shoot throughs. But, it took a lot of walking and a third shot to the CNS, to convince Mr. Hog.
That... and a few other instances I witnessed as a guide... convinced me that the .357 magnum was not a cartridge I wished to use on my woods "shopping trips"



Thanks Chris that is really useful. Yeah, I would have thought a 10" contender would push that load "right smartly as well".

The first hog I saw shot with a .357 was with Winchester 158 JHP which we chronographed out of the gun (4" M-66) at 1350 fps.

He was hit 4 times through the heart and the shooter still had time to reload before he started to fade.

I was impressed with the hog - with the load not so much


Three rounds were thru and thru the 4th stayed in the hog.

Jim H.

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BobM77
Advanced Member

USA
1454 Posts

Posted - May 31 2019 :  9:39:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Interesting. On a now defunct forum years ago, a 180 JHP was recommended as a deer load for the 357. I was thinking of trying some 180 grain Hornady XTPs in my 5" GP100.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3656 Posts

Posted - June 01 2019 :  05:42:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BobM77

Interesting. On a now defunct forum years ago, a 180 JHP was recommended as a deer load for the 357. I was thinking of trying some 180 grain Hornady XTPs in my 5" GP100.



For those thinking about the .357 Magnum for deer or hogs I would suggest adding an accessory -- a sturdy set of hiking boots

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5538 Posts

Posted - June 01 2019 :  07:10:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

quote:
Originally posted by BobM77

Interesting. On a now defunct forum years ago, a 180 JHP was recommended as a deer load for the 357. I was thinking of trying some 180 grain Hornady XTPs in my 5" GP100.



For those thinking about the .357 Magnum for deer or hogs I would suggest adding an accessory -- a sturdy set of hiking boots

So what's the takeaway here?

"All handguns are feeble", so you might as well pack 9mm ball and at least get penetration?

Or "Bigger really is better."

Jeff

jle3030
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3656 Posts

Posted - June 01 2019 :  1:54:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jeff, I can't explain why the .357 Magnum round from a handgun has been such a dismal performer as a deer & hog hunting round, in my experience.

It could be due to where I shoot them. When I am "hunting", I am actually "shopping"... so I tend to do heart/lung shots to bleed out the meat and make packaging it up easier. Bigger bullets (like the .44 Mag) or faster bullets (like the .300 Whisper with a 150 grain load from a 10-inch Contender) tend to do much better.

If one is shooting for a CNS shot... brain, spine... I can't imagine why the .357 wouldn't do a good job. It certainly has the velocity and decent bullets to do that. But, that's not where I'm aiming, so the .357 has not worked for me, or for others that I have guided on hog hunts, in my experience.


Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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gauchobill
Advanced Member

1148 Posts

Posted - June 01 2019 :  4:25:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have shot and ultimately killed several hogs with 9mm and .357 soft nosed bullets. All three of them required tracking and more shooting to end their life on earth. My conclusion isn't favorable to those calibers. On the other hand I once shot an armadillo with a .44 Magnum 240 grain hollow point load and he kept on trucking although he soon had all four legs in the upward position. This large bullet didn't expand on the hard shell of the armadillo.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3656 Posts

Posted - June 01 2019 :  5:05:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, but on the plus side there was just one neat little .4 inch hole that "ya could eat around"

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5677 Posts

Posted - June 01 2019 :  11:07:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Vast majority of pigs I've shot have been through the ears, so they didn't care what caliber was used. One I shot, about 25-30 yards maybe, broadside through the lungs with a .44Mag Soft Point; it pulverized the lungs and took out at least one off-side rib, and he still ran about 75 yards. Shot one, about the same distance, broadside through the ribs with a Wolf 55gr Soft Point .223, as he was walking by--well, trotting, actually--and he dropped like somebody dropped a load of bricks on top of him. The bullet didn't exit, I couldn't find it or any fragments of it, but the lungs looked like pink jelly. Ya just never know. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9831 Posts

Posted - June 07 2019 :  11:38:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Vast majority of pigs I've shot have been through the ears, so they didn't care what caliber was used. One I shot, about 25-30 yards maybe, broadside through the lungs with a .44Mag Soft Point; it pulverized the lungs and took out at least one off-side rib, and he still ran about 75 yards. Shot one, about the same distance, broadside through the ribs with a Wolf 55gr Soft Point .223, as he was walking by--well, trotting, actually--and he dropped like somebody dropped a load of bricks on top of him. The bullet didn't exit, I couldn't find it or any fragments of it, but the lungs looked like pink jelly. Ya just never know. Ace



Ace, it's not so much how far he runs (I admit that is an interesting piece of information) but which direction he runs!

I have a pair of interesting pictures, one taken by me and one taken by Tom Givens at almost the exact same moment. A friend, retired engineer for a big ammo company, is standing facing the charging hog while the guide is hoofing it to the rear almost as fast as the hog is gaining.

Joe stood his ground and turned the charge with a .45 230 Hydra shok to the snout (which did not stop the hog of course but it did change his mind). Another shot through the shoulder at 25 yards dropped him dead.

I do agree, with head shots all that matters is enough penetration to get to the brain. With shoulder shots it matters that you break bone and also get something that bleeds - bigger seems to be better. With heart/lung shots bigger just means you won't have to track as far as long as you get both lungs and an exit to speed things along.

That said, I shot a smallish old hog at close range (like 10 or 12 yards) with a .45 165 gr. +P (1250 fps) and the "race was on" - I shot him twice more through the lungs on our 1/4 mile chase and brought it to an end when a 230 gr. Ranger +P was the next round up.

The reaction was visibly different from the three 165s - I even questioned whether I missed him at first but upon examination I had about a 2-3" group behind the shoulder. None of those made it into the second lung. The 230 Range exited the hog and stopped this circuis.

Lesson learned.

Jim H.


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rla
Starting Member

10 Posts

Posted - June 07 2019 :  3:40:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anyone have any experience with the 357 Mag loaded with a 180 gr WFN (Wide Flat Nose) used on deer or hogs?
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gw
Advanced Member

4792 Posts

Posted - June 08 2019 :  07:48:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Vast majority of pigs I've shot have been through the ears, so they didn't care what caliber was used. One I shot, about 25-30 yards maybe, broadside through the lungs with a .44Mag Soft Point; it pulverized the lungs and took out at least one off-side rib, and he still ran about 75 yards. Shot one, about the same distance, broadside through the ribs with a Wolf 55gr Soft Point .223, as he was walking by--well, trotting, actually--and he dropped like somebody dropped a load of bricks on top of him. The bullet didn't exit, I couldn't find it or any fragments of it, but the lungs looked like pink jelly. Ya just never know. Ace



Ace, it's not so much how far he runs (I admit that is an interesting piece of information) but which direction he runs!

I have a pair of interesting pictures, one taken by me and one taken by Tom Givens at almost the exact same moment. A friend, retired engineer for a big ammo company, is standing facing the charging hog while the guide is hoofing it to the rear almost as fast as the hog is gaining.

Joe stood his ground and turned the charge with a .45 230 Hydra shok to the snout (which did not stop the hog of course but it did change his mind). Another shot through the shoulder at 25 yards dropped him dead.

I do agree, with head shots all that matters is enough penetration to get to the brain. With shoulder shots it matters that you break bone and also get something that bleeds - bigger seems to be better. With heart/lung shots bigger just means you won't have to track as far as long as you get both lungs and an exit to speed things along.

That said, I shot a smallish old hog at close range (like 10 or 12 yards) with a .45 165 gr. +P (1250 fps) and the "race was on" - I shot him twice more through the lungs on our 1/4 mile chase and brought it to an end when a 230 gr. Ranger +P was the next round up.

The reaction was visibly different from the three 165s - I even questioned whether I missed him at first but upon examination I had about a 2-3" group behind the shoulder. None of those made it into the second lung. The 230 Range exited the hog and stopped this circuis.

Lesson learned.

Jim H.




my uncle had a big expensive 600lb boar hog pin him up against a fence one morning

tore him up good inside his legs

he busted a 3ft length of 2x4 across his snout, that stunned the hog for a bit

when it turned back at him, the uncle nailed him between the eyes with a claw hammer

dropped the hog dead

my uncle had been a carpenter all his life, could really swing a framing hammer

I don't know if that makes the hammer more effective than a .44, but it might top a .357 on a really big hog......

Edited by - gw on June 08 2019 07:52:36 AM
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Evan
Administrator

34581 Posts

Posted - June 08 2019 :  12:01:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One the few things I actually know is that I was significantly happier before I bought a chronograph!

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3656 Posts

Posted - June 08 2019 :  1:00:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Evan

One the few things I actually know is that I was significantly happier before I bought a chronograph!


A chronograph tells you how fast the bullet is moving, ten feet from the muzzle. It doesn't tell you what it will do when it impacts the target.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Evan
Administrator

34581 Posts

Posted - June 08 2019 :  6:12:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And it often gives you info that directs you to other info and other info until you're old and grey like me.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9831 Posts

Posted - June 09 2019 :  07:12:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So GW your uncle must be the source of the quote: "If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a hog"

Sorry I could not resist. Glad it worked out OK.

Jim H.

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gw
Advanced Member

4792 Posts

Posted - June 09 2019 :  08:30:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
yeah he was good with a hammer

he was evetually ok, hog maimed him for life and he almost bleed to death

I was just a kid, but those big hogs scared me, his sows were bigger, more aggressive

I knew a few old farmers hurt working with livestock

my granddad butchered hogs, was famous for making sausage around his farm

he wore out a Colt OP .22 killing, he'd put one round in the ear hole and one was all it took.....
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - June 09 2019 :  10:37:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

So GW your uncle must be the source of the quote: "If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a hog"

Sorry I could not resist. Glad it worked out OK.

Jim H.


It does sound like he nailed that hog alright...


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

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