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 School Resource Officer - unintended discharge
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djwarner
Average Member

USA
262 Posts

Posted - May 02 2019 :  3:32:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A local School Resource Officer's Sig Sauer 9mm P320 reportedly fired after the holstered gun bumped against a cafeteria wall.

It went through the Sig "voluntary upgrade" to preclude accidental discharges and returned to service in October 2018. It was holstered in
a Safariland 6360 triple retention duty holster when the discharge occurred.

Deputies say they don't keep the safety on their guns on because it needs to be in a ready mode.

The Florida Legislature is currently debating a bill to allow arming of teachers with local schoolboard permission and this event has the local news media tongues wagging.

NON NOBIS TANTUM NATI

Rexster
New Member

USA
96 Posts

Posted - May 04 2019 :  09:38:33 AM  Show Profile  Send Rexster an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Color me skeptical, regarding the “bumped against a cafeteria wall” part. I am no apologist for SIG, but do tend to lean toward the human error/stupidity angle, especially if this particular 6360 is the version made to accommodate a WML, which does allow clearance for an errant finger to reach the trigger.

I can reach a Glock trigger, with the weapon locked into my 6360 WML-compatible holster. Skinny fingers make it relatively easy. (Notably, this holster was an add-on, for special situations, to be secured with a quick-release mounted on my “support” side. My primary 6360 duty holster, on the normal shank, was not the WML version.)

Let’s keep in mind that a school district or PD/SD would love to throw a manufacturer under the bus, rather than admit personal/agency liability.

I also remember the drawcord-as-lanyard trick, which several brain-children have managed to perform, including that police officer whose incident was a viral video, for a while.

Edited to add: I am not saying that the SRO should not receive due process. This should be thoroughly investigated, by the proper folks.


Have Colts, will travel

Edited by - Rexster on May 04 2019 09:42:38 AM
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Bill D
Advanced Member

USA
1225 Posts

Posted - May 07 2019 :  6:15:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Re:"gun needs to be in a ready mode" sounds like a lack of training regarding the safety. One other thing is the holster have we started to make the puzzle box to house the weapon. Training with the primary weapon is not a joke. Nothing new here except the finger on the wall reaching out and pulling the trigger. Bill

Bill D
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gauchobill
Advanced Member

1122 Posts

Posted - May 08 2019 :  07:07:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Reminds me of the recent complaint about discharges from the FNS 9mm handgun carried by some LEOs. My FNS has never given me any indications it would spontaneously fire if bumped. Just to test it, I took it to the range where I could safely tap it with a hard mallet. First, holding it pointed downrange with one hand, I hit it hard on four sides with the mallet and it didn't trip the firing pin while loaded or unloaded. Restored my confidence in my FNS. I strongly believe these types of spontaneous discharges occur because of human error.
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djwarner
Average Member

USA
262 Posts

Posted - May 08 2019 :  10:30:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A google search yielded an Omaha Outdoors video on YouTube showing that when dropped so as to hit the slide and frame butt on the ground would cause unintended firing of several, but not all of the guns tested. They note in the video that the guns all passed the standard drop test that required the guns be dropped barrel first or on their sides.

Their conclusion was that when dropped butt first, that some triggers continued moving aft after impact causing the discharge. So if the SRO was seated with the holster rotated to expose the gun butt and...… possible?

NON NOBIS TANTUM NATI
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1940 Posts

Posted - May 09 2019 :  12:39:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I’ll bet lunch that something which didn’t belong in the trigger guard got in there. Keys? Finger?
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Bill D
Advanced Member

USA
1225 Posts

Posted - May 09 2019 :  7:22:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I cannot understand why these people do not keep the safety on. Is it some interference with the holster. After all these years I can flick the safety off on my 1911 when cocked and locked with no trouble. The Sig seems to have the same safety set up. Is it just lack of training or some other thing I am not familiar with. Bill

Bill D
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9778 Posts

Posted - May 17 2019 :  07:46:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ten Driver

I’ll bet lunch that something which didn’t belong in the trigger guard got in there. Keys? Finger?



I wasn't there but this would also be my guess - I used to say a holstered pistol is safe but now I've seen documented cases of 6 going off in the holster - most of them were poor holsters though.

One was a name brand horizontal shoulder holster and 6 witnesses said the wearer did not touch the gun which went off when he took the holster off - alas it was fatal.

Still, odds are....

Jim H.

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9778 Posts

Posted - May 17 2019 :  07:47:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bill D

I cannot understand why these people do not keep the safety on. Is it some interference with the holster. After all these years I can flick the safety off on my 1911 when cocked and locked with no trouble. The Sig seems to have the same safety set up. Is it just lack of training or some other thing I am not familiar with. Bill



Me too Bill, but most folks these days get their opinions off of YouTube

Jim H.

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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djwarner
Average Member

USA
262 Posts

Posted - May 17 2019 :  09:22:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Another local case of accidental discharge happened this week when a senior citizen dropped her purse while checking out at the supermarket. Her derringer style gun discharged hitting her husband in the calf.

Would have assumed this style gun would be a single action only. It would appear she carried it with the hammer back. Go figure.

NON NOBIS TANTUM NATI
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5577 Posts

Posted - May 17 2019 :  11:04:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some derringers--all of which are a poor choice for defensive carry--have a cross-bolt safety to block the hammer; in particular, the Bond brand, don't know about the others out there. As I recall, if the safety isn't engaged, the hammer does have access to the firing pin, and a blow to the hammer could easily cause a discharge. Then again, there are people stupid, or ignorant, enough to carry one cocked; as difficult as they are to cock under stress, I could understand a non-gun person thinking that cocked would make the gun more 'ready'--understand it, certainly not agree with it. This would amount to the same level of ignorance of people who carry a modern revawver with an empty chamber under the hammer--for safety's sake, don'cha see. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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miragetex
Junior Member

USA
109 Posts

Posted - May 18 2019 :  12:10:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ace - I agree with most of your comment, but point out that the Bond derringer, in addition to a crossbolt safety, has a rebounding hammer that can not touch the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled even if the crossbolt is in the "fire" position. I don't think most of the other derringer-type guns have these features.
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fiasconva
Average Member

USA
250 Posts

Posted - May 18 2019 :  3:36:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm was really surprised that the anti's didn't jump all over this news and keep it on the air for days at a time. It must have slipped by them. It got limited coverage for a change.

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3547 Posts

Posted - May 18 2019 :  3:45:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by miragetex

Ace - I agree with most of your comment, but point out that the Bond derringer, in addition to a crossbolt safety, has a rebounding hammer that can not touch the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled even if the crossbolt is in the "fire" position. I don't think most of the other derringer-type guns have these features.



The gun still went BANG when she dropped her purse onto the floor.
I will refrain from further comments regarding slick marketing, price point & inexperienced gun owners.... other than to say the mere act of having "some kinda gun" is not enough to insure one's safety.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5490 Posts

Posted - May 18 2019 :  5:49:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The case can be made that ‘negligent discharge’ is a more complete and accurate description of these occurrences than ‘unintended discharge’.

The person didn’t mean for it to happen, so yeah, it was unintended; but most (if not all) of the time, there was negligence on somebody’s part as well.

And sometimes, more than one form of negligence: In the case of the derringer Ace talks about, negligence on the part of the person who designed it in a way that it would fire when dropped on the hammer with the safety off; and negligence too on the part of the person who allowed it to drop.

Ditto for the P320 mentioned in the original post: if some of them can go off when dropped, clearly that was an unintended consequence of a flaw in the original design.



"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 18 2019 5:59:23 PM
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5577 Posts

Posted - May 18 2019 :  6:44:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
tex, I'd forgotten about that rebounding hammer on the Bonds, so if that's what she had in her purse, then who knows what happened. If it was one of those cheap models, it wouldn't take much of a drop. If, as someone speculated, it was cocked, well...
Then again, I've heard a lot of people use the term 'derringer' when talking about those useless little paperweights NAA makes. When I was working at the gun store, it was scary how many people would have one of those in a pocket, and think they were ready to face off the ravening hordes. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5490 Posts

Posted - May 18 2019 :  10:24:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have to confess: more decades back than I care to remember, when I first started getting into handguns, I owned a couple of those NAA paperweights; in both .22 LR and .22 Mag. Their obvious appeal— besides being cute— is that you can carry one in your pocket no matter how you’re dressed, and no one is the wiser. (This was before I knew a lot about holsters....)

I practiced with them by starting out really close to the target, and gradually moving back: as I got good at hitting at, say, 2 feet, I moved back to 3 feet; then when I could regularly keep my rounds in a saucer-sized group at 3 feet, I’d move back to 4 feet; etc. If memory serves, I got so I could hit pretty well with them from 6-8 feet away.

So the case could be made that those cute little buggers aren’t totally useless; that they’re BTN guns— better than nothing— at ‘Get off me’ distances.

Then at one point it occurred to me: Why carry this hard-to-shoot little thing, when I could be carrying a real gun (or two), that I didn’t need to cock each time, and be real close to what I was shooting at in order to hit it?

But as a last-ditch, barrel-in-the-ear gun, when (for whatever reason) everything else has failed— maybe not totally useless?

Not to mention the entertainment value— and I know you’ll appreciate this, Ace— of pulling it out at my local gunshop, and allowing as how— “with the right ammo”, and “if I’m doing my part”— it was capable of printing 2” groups at 50 yards, “all day long”....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 18 2019 11:29:50 PM
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5577 Posts

Posted - May 19 2019 :  1:21:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We all have a learning curve. I useta think one of those little Hi Standard .22Mag derringers would be a good pocket gun--no hammer to cock, and two (only two) rounds of a potent(?) load to dissuade bad guys. Took awhile to occur to me that if I hadn't stopped him with six rounds of .357, 12 rounds of 9mm (or eight of .45, whatever I had in the shoulder holster BUG carrier that day), and six more rounds of .357 from the jacket-pocket Ruger, why the heck would two .22 bullets impress him? Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3547 Posts

Posted - May 19 2019 :  2:23:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

We all have a learning curve. I useta think one of those little Hi Standard .22Mag derringers would be a good pocket gun--no hammer to cock, and two (only two) rounds of a potent(?) load to dissuade bad guys. Took awhile to occur to me that if I hadn't stopped him with six rounds of .357, 12 rounds of 9mm (or eight of .45, whatever I had in the shoulder holster BUG carrier that day), and six more rounds of .357 from the jacket-pocket Ruger, why the heck would two .22 bullets impress him? Ace



I have to put in a 'small' plug for the High Standard .22 Mag derringer. In 'another life' I did tote one of those just behind my belt buckle. I considered that safe, and still would.The long DA pull was not conducive to a high level of accuracy, but I did get to where I could bounce a beer can at 7 yards (twice) and was comfortable with that level of accuracy because if I ever truly needed that little gun it was because I had lost the fist fight, was flat on my back, getting 'ground & pound'... and I could stick it in his ear, or whatever 'tender portion of the anatomy was available .

I wouldn't mind having one today. But, my Taurus View (now discontinued) isn't much bigger, fills the back-up pocket gun role, and has five-rounds of bigger bullets. I consider that to be the 21st Century derringer. Time & technology marches on.... but the need for that type of carry gun option never fades.

Technology may change... but people don't

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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