StoppingPower.net Forums
Home
Forums
Commentary
H&S
About
StoppingPower.net Forums

StoppingPower.net Forums - Traditional masculinity
StoppingPower.net Forums
StoppingPower.net Forums
Forums Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ | Invite a friend
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Other
 Miscellaneous
 Traditional masculinity
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5440 Posts

Posted - January 09 2019 :  09:50:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It comes as no surprise really, but the American Psychological Association has decided that "traditional masculinity", with its stoicism, competitiveness, and dominance aspects is "on the whole, harmful". It leads to homophobia, bullying, and sexual harassment. It constrains behavior and expression of emotions. It creates gender identity strain and gender role conflict. On the whole traditional masculinity is now identified as a negative influence on physical and mental health.

The statement goes on to advise clinicians on how to address the problem of their own personal biases while helping us traditional males to address the negative influences of our inherent power, privilege and sexism and to realize how those things confer unfair benefits and trap men in narrow identity roles.

Jeff

jle3030

ASCTLC
Senior Member

739 Posts

Posted - January 09 2019 :  09:56:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So they suggest we should be more like Frenchmen?

Now where'd I put my white flag...

Edited by - ASCTLC on January 09 2019 09:57:20 AM
Go to Top of Page

gw
Advanced Member

4624 Posts

Posted - January 09 2019 :  10:18:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
if you've every been forced to attend mandatory diversity training, you already knew this.

the sad news is, this type of training is forced on our military.

I don't think our enemies armys are being fed this garbage though......

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
Go to Top of Page

jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5440 Posts

Posted - January 09 2019 :  11:01:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can see therapists with this antimale orientation doing incalculable damage to their potentially suicidal military PTSD patients.

Jeff

jle3030
Go to Top of Page

gauchobill
Advanced Member

1122 Posts

Posted - January 09 2019 :  1:23:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pray tell, what is the motivation for all the current strains of political correctness (a/k/a Drivel)? I think it can only be the reduction of male influence in ALL areas of the human experience. The message is we are supposed to modify ourselves to fit the new standards? I would tell them not to hold their breath till---
Go to Top of Page

ASCTLC
Senior Member

739 Posts

Posted - January 09 2019 :  2:18:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gauchobill

Pray tell, what is the motivation for all the current strains of political correctness (a/k/a Drivel)?


I say it's 'grading on the curve' (aka: cheating), plain and simple. It's the only way a too large percentage of our population thinks they can get ahead of normal people's ambitions.

The stupidity of it is they aren't advancing, they're simply trying to hold back people so they don't get too far ahead.

Sounds just like the social/economic justice approach, doesn't it? I wonder why...
Go to Top of Page

LittleBill
Advanced Member

5490 Posts

Posted - January 09 2019 :  4:11:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
By modern standards of Political Correctness, pretty much all of the men who founded America and explored and settled it, were “racist”, “sexist”, “homophobic”, and yes, “toxically masculine”. I’m sure they would have been “transphobic” too, if transvestites had existed back then.

So what this reorientation to PC values entails, is a renunciation of pretty much everything: all the values and qualities of character that used to make men men, and all the men we were taught to admire as exceptional in their characters and accomplishments.

It’s really not that hard, guys, if you follow a couple simple rules:

1) everything you thought you knew: is really dead wrong

2) everyone you were taught to admire: is really a despicable, toxically-masculine, racist, etc., villain

That’s easy enough, isn’t it?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on January 09 2019 5:47:47 PM
Go to Top of Page

LittleBill
Advanced Member

5490 Posts

Posted - January 09 2019 :  4:17:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

I can see therapists with this antimale orientation doing incalculable damage to their potentially suicidal military PTSD patients.

Jeff


Yep. And the day may come when getting licensed as a therapist is contingent on affirming and embracing PC values.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
Go to Top of Page

LittleBill
Advanced Member

5490 Posts

Posted - January 09 2019 :  4:25:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

if you've every been forced to attend mandatory diversity training, you already knew this.

the sad news is, this type of training is forced on our military.

I don't think our enemies armys are being fed this garbage though......


Yep. And add to the list of those being forcibly indoctrinated “trained” in “tolerance” and “diversity” and “inclusion” and all the other sacred values of political correctness: most public schoolchildren... the day is fast approaching in many places where teaching American history as it used to be taught makes you guilty of a hate crime...

And yes: I’m sure our enemies are delighted to see how wonderfully-“inclusive” our military has become....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on January 09 2019 5:49:22 PM
Go to Top of Page

retfed89
Advanced Member

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - January 09 2019 :  11:04:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I haven’t really kept up on what is being taught in our military, not since my son left active duty with the Marines. Now that it is really a coed institution I could understand some sexual harassment training. Still I thought it’s job was to kill the enemy, destroy his equipment and occupy his ground. I thought that is what the guns, torpedoes etc on the destroyer were for because we sure trained a lot to do that. I guess that was the really “Old Navy”, I don’t imagine the motto of the USS Gudgeon SS 211, from WW II, “ Find ‘em, Chase ‘em, Sink ‘em,” would be acceptable, too toxically masculine for this age? Too aggressive?
I guess my parents did a lousy job of raising my 3 brothers and me, because I still think the old way. Retfed
Go to Top of Page

jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5440 Posts

Posted - January 10 2019 :  07:46:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tammy Bruce, the self proclaimed conservative lesbian talk show host, was on Fox and Friends just now. She pretty much nailed the APA to the wall for their position on Traditional Masculinity.

Any number of people could have done that, but I really liked Fox News' choice of a highly intelligent and articulate gay woman to deliver the message.

Jeff

jle3030
Go to Top of Page

jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5440 Posts

Posted - January 10 2019 :  09:37:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The old saying is "follow the money". Imagine the uptick in psychotherapists' billable hours now that simply being a man or boy is an indication for treatment to a desired outcome.

Link this this new 'evidence based medical standard' to the Red Flag laws and any one of us could be considered a public safety risk who should have our guns seized. Normally I would consider that a ridiculously paranoid idea, but the way things are going I can see it happening in some places.

Jeff

jle3030

Edited by - jle3030 on January 10 2019 09:48:20 AM
Go to Top of Page

LittleBill
Advanced Member

5490 Posts

Posted - January 10 2019 :  2:48:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For many years now— starting in some cases as young as two or three— boys in some communities have been dosed with Ritalin for supposedly being ‘hyperactive’ in school. Observers with more sense have pointed out that they were just acting like little boys, who were never meant to sit quietly all day behind a desk. But ‘progressive’ teachers and clueless parents and doctors collude to ‘cure’ that masculine behavior with drugs. Once the little boys are acting more like little girls, everyone’s happy.... (except the boys, who unfortunately have no say in the matter...)

And yeah: change the definition of ‘normal’, and we all end up in danger of having our rights taken away; ‘for the good of society’. I’m sure there are already places where a love of firearms and other ‘traditionally masculine’ attitudes offend ‘prevailing community standards’ .

The Russians did that all the time: rather than throwing political dissidents in jail for opposing the regime, they had them declared mentally-ill; and incarcerated them ‘for their own good’ in psychiatric wards.

How long will it be until ‘Toxic Masculinity Syndrome’ appears in the DSM?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on January 10 2019 3:32:10 PM
Go to Top of Page

LittleBill
Advanced Member

5490 Posts

Posted - January 10 2019 :  3:24:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by retfed89

I haven’t really kept up on what is being taught in our military, not since my son left active duty with the Marines. Now that it is really a coed institution I could understand some sexual harassment training. Still I thought it’s job was to kill the enemy, destroy his equipment and occupy his ground. I thought that is what the guns, torpedoes etc on the destroyer were for because we sure trained a lot to do that. I guess that was the really “Old Navy”, I don’t imagine the motto of the USS Gudgeon SS 211, from WW II, “ Find ‘em, Chase ‘em, Sink ‘em,” would be acceptable, too toxically masculine for this age? Too aggressive?
I guess my parents did a lousy job of raising my 3 brothers and me, because I still think the old way. Retfed


Yeah, you’ve really gotta wonder what our military “leaders” are thinking.... it’s not just women serving in the military, it’s women in combat, and now even in Special Forces units; though standards have to be quietly lowered to insure that some of them pass the physical requirements...

And if that wasn’t enough, being openly homosexual is now considered no problem... and if that wasn’t enough, ‘transgenders’ are now being welcomed.... I was shocked to see General Mattis refuse to enforce Trump’s edict that transgenders shouldn’t be in our military.

It’s like they’ve all agreed to ignore the fact that fighting and killing— which, as you point out, used to be recognized as the military’s primary mission— is the most ‘toxically masculine’ activity of all... and that you need masculine men to carry it out....

You’ve gotta wonder how different American history would have been, if so many of our forefathers hadn’t been so toxically masculine.... and what our future will be like, once the masculinity has been bred out of our men...


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on January 10 2019 3:30:30 PM
Go to Top of Page

LittleBill
Advanced Member

5490 Posts

Posted - January 10 2019 :  3:36:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe one day

Find ‘em, Chase ‘em, Sink ‘em


will have morphed into the much-less-toxically-masculine:

Avoid ‘em if you can.... Dialogue with ‘em if you can’t.... Agree to disagree.... Smile and wave at ‘em as you sail away....



"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on January 10 2019 3:50:11 PM
Go to Top of Page

Bill D
Advanced Member

USA
1225 Posts

Posted - January 10 2019 :  4:52:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Naw, Find um, chase um and sink um. When I did time on those great diesel boats, that was the word. I hope it still is, even with girlies on board.....Bill D

Bill D
Go to Top of Page

Pop Pop
Advanced Member

USA
1050 Posts

Posted - January 11 2019 :  10:10:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well Oprah said this first, but in a very different way. She said, "Racism, bullying and hatred, that is in this world, will exist until all the old white men are dead and gone."

Jeff, "traditional males" is just another phrase to include old white men.

Did you all catch the evening news where it was reported that the "Center For Disease Control", located in Atlanta, is again collecting murder stats. The NRA sued the gov and stopped this, once before, because they will eventually use the biased reported and collected information in support of gun control.

Pop Pop

Edited by - Pop Pop on January 11 2019 10:11:51 AM
Go to Top of Page

rev.
Advanced Member

1005 Posts

Posted - January 11 2019 :  12:38:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As a Pastor in the Lutheran Church I have done a good number of the Myers-Briggs personality indicators as part of pre-marital counselling. I found it interesting and disastrous. When I would read off the results of the woman's indicator, both prospective man and wife would say; "yes, that's her/me"! But half of the time I'd read off the men's indicator, I'd get this stunned reaction like; "where'd you get that stuff from?" So here's the way it worked;
Women know they are women and answered the questions honestly. The men on the other hand seem to question who they are or who they should be, so instead of answering the questions honestly, they answered how they think they should be. More often than not, their personality profile would more likely fit John Wayne. Seems like instead of just being themselves, they were more like phony John Wayne wannabees, and that I think is specifically a description of this new "toxic masculinity"......men trying to be who they are not but who they think they should be.
OK guys.....lay it on me.
Respectfully,
rev.

Go to Top of Page

Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3547 Posts

Posted - January 11 2019 :  2:20:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rev... I'm not going to "lay it on". I do think your observations have validity. I do see this... "I'm badder than I actually am"... sometimes.

Those who aspire to be John Wayne need to assemble the life experiences and life successes that allow them to be John Wayne. In earlier days, when the military was a choice, or requirement, for many, those who served learned what was needed.... either by their own actions in extremis, or by viewing others. Now, with video 'shoot 'em up' games so prevalent, many equate their skill there with the Real World.

Ain't so. The RW is much different, even though some don't realize it because they have minimal exposure to it.

I would wonder about the age group of the males you are interviewing,
and what their previous life experiences are.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
Go to Top of Page

ASCTLC
Senior Member

739 Posts

Posted - January 11 2019 :  2:22:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nuttin to lay on ya rev, I think you have it concluded accurately in my humble opinion.
Go to Top of Page

rev.
Advanced Member

1005 Posts

Posted - January 11 2019 :  4:07:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Chris; On the matter of age, most were in their early twenties to mid thirties. However, one man was in his fifties, he was actually a man I knew quite well, and when I reviewed his profile he was totally unrecognizable. In his case I was not surprised. Like I said, I knew him. If I were back in parish ministry I would no longer use the Myers Briggs. Too much trouble trying to explain away the results without outright saying "you lied".
rev.
Go to Top of Page

jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5440 Posts

Posted - January 11 2019 :  9:07:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rev - I can see the problems with Myers Briggs. Like any personality assessments it only works if people answer honestly. That's something they may not be able to do for themselves; let alone for the eyes of others.

For myself, I've found Myers Briggs quite useful. Answering honestly I find I'm a 50-50 mix of two personality types, each of which comprises only about 1-2% of the population. (ISTP/ISTJ). Once I learned where I fit in - or why I sometimes didn't - life was easier.

Jeff

jle3030
Go to Top of Page

jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5440 Posts

Posted - January 11 2019 :  9:11:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pop Pop

Well Oprah said this first, but in a very different way. She said, "Racism, bullying and hatred, that is in this world, will exist until all the old white men are dead and gone."

Jeff, "traditional males" is just another phrase to include old white men.

Did you all catch the evening news where it was reported that the "Center For Disease Control", located in Atlanta, is again collecting murder stats. The NRA sued the gov and stopped this, once before, because they will eventually use the biased reported and collected information in support of gun control.

Is that the study I read about that backfired - i.e. tended to support the widespread efficacy of firearms in warding off criminal attack and the futility of gun control laws?

Jeff

jle3030
Go to Top of Page

retfed89
Advanced Member

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - January 12 2019 :  12:01:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Does the BSA oath and law become “toxic masculinity” under the new APA decree? As a former Boy Scout and Sea Scout, the oath and law was one of my guides that I used in becoming man. A hitch in the Navy with 3 years on a DD taught me more things about becoming a man. Coming of age in a masculine environment gave me goals to meet, I.e., take responsibility when you screw up, share the credit when things go good, when it’s going in the toilet, suck it up and work through. The only safe space is the one you make! Help your shipmates, because there is no 911 at sea, just you and your shipmates. I know at 81 I am a dinosaur/relic of what used to be, and glad of it. Hope I passed it on to my kids and grandkids! I am sure that my grandkids, boys and girls, are no Snowflakes.
Enough old guy ranting. Retfed
Go to Top of Page

rev.
Advanced Member

1005 Posts

Posted - January 12 2019 :  09:22:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
jle3030......I'm an INFJ/P (bourderline J-P) Life is tough on us Introverts, always having to resist the accusation that there's something wrong with us.

retfed89.....to me, real masculinity is accepting responsibility, for your familial responsibilities and for yourself, and for your shipmates. At 80 I think your definition of real masculinity is spot on.
rev.
Go to Top of Page

jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5440 Posts

Posted - January 12 2019 :  09:51:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rev.

jle3030......I'm an INFJ/P (bourderline J-P) Life is tough on us Introverts, always having to resist the accusation that there's something wrong with us.

retfed89.....to me, real masculinity is accepting responsibility, for your familial responsibilities and for yourself, and for your shipmates. At 80 I think your definition of real masculinity is spot on.
rev.

Rev - For those of us in the Introverted category, it's useful to look at a related area of research and understand the Gamma Rat.

Jeff

jle3030
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
StoppingPower.net Forums © 2002-16 StoppingPower.net, Inc. Go To Top Of Page
Thispagewasgeneratedin0.19seconds. Snitz Forums 2000