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 Federal +p 130 HST .38 spl.
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Russ Larges
Moderator

USA
2410 Posts

Posted - December 28 2018 :  3:02:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I picked up a box of these awhile back and just today got around to clocking them. These are the ones that look like a hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards.
Hi. 775
lo. 740
avg. 762
ES 34.95
SD 14.76

I shot these out of my 642 with the chrono at 10 ft..
5 shots in a 4" group at about 10 yds and about 2.5"below poa, I would expect better groups from a better shot as I shake abit.
Russ

The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper

Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9814 Posts

Posted - January 01 2019 :  1:07:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Russ;

Thanks for the report!

That is in the same range of velocity I got from my 2" Model 15 S&W (which is actually 2" not 1 7/8).

We tested it in water and it did not expand (it did deform on one side and tumbled), only went through one gallon water jug (lengthwise - which in that case was 11") and then bounced off the next jug (but it did cause a crack which leaked).

Neither myself of the guy testing it was impressed enough to buy another box.

I did not test it for accuracy.

Have a Happy and Prosperous New Year (prosperity of course meaning more ammo and more guns).

Jim H.

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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5647 Posts

Posted - January 01 2019 :  2:43:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm wondering if a 4 or 6" barrel would improve the results, even though they are intended for short barrels (as I recall). Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Evan
Administrator

34549 Posts

Posted - January 02 2019 :  7:16:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ordered a bunch of .45 ACP from SG ammo and added a box of Hornaday's eraser head bullets in a lite version for my Smith 442. Will report how it works.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Frogfoot
Senior Member

USA
864 Posts

Posted - January 03 2019 :  6:56:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've seen video tests of this particular load and some work quite well and some don't. It seems that the velocity window for this round is very small and long barrels are a little too much of a good thing, while in the short barreled guns it was intended for, it looks like they're on the razor's edge with too little velocity for reliable expansion.

We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give. - Sir Winston Churchill
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - January 04 2019 :  08:06:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

I'm wondering if a 4 or 6" barrel would improve the results, even though they are intended for short barrels (as I recall). Ace

Off hand I can't think of any handgun round that doesn't benefit from extra barrel length.

You can only do so much by tweaking bullet design and powder burning characteristics. The rest is up to the ammo company's marketing department.

Jeff

jle3030
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gw
Advanced Member

4744 Posts

Posted - January 04 2019 :  10:00:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
a longer barrel could over drive a bullet, over expansion with less penetration


"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - January 05 2019 :  08:38:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

a longer barrel could over drive a bullet, over expansion with less penetration
I think I stand corrected. I recently saw an online gel test comparing Hornady 9mm Critical Defense vs Critical Duty loads. And I believe the gun was a shorter barreled 9mm. The hotter Critical Duty load did expand a bit more and penetrate slightly less than the same bullet (?) in Critical Defense. So by extension you could suspect that adding velocity via barrel length, as opposed to powder charge, would yield much the same result.

But then whether that would qualify as 'overdriving' the bullet would depend on whether a person worships at the altar of Expansion or Penetration. It used to be that Expansion was the be all and end all "Before I know better". (Extra points to those who recall that western movie line.)

Jeff

jle3030
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gw
Advanced Member

4744 Posts

Posted - January 05 2019 :  10:20:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
seems like 3 ways to increase the volume of the wound tract created

larger diameter bullet, deeper tract ( more penetration), and/ or make more than one tract with multiple hits

actual real world use trumps all the test media results to me

some of the better performing snub loads , don't seem to do well in gell testing

for the little guns like the snub, lacking any better information, I default to penetration over expansion



"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on January 05 2019 10:21:50 AM
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Russ Larges
Moderator

USA
2410 Posts

Posted - January 05 2019 :  3:32:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

Russ;

Thanks for the report!

That is in the same range of velocity I got from my 2" Model 15 S&W (which is actually 2" not 1 7/8).

We tested it in water and it did not expand (it did deform on one side and tumbled), only went through one gallon water jug (lengthwise - which in that case was 11") and then bounced off the next jug (but it did cause a crack which leaked).

Neither myself of the guy testing it was impressed enough to buy another box.

I did not test it for accuracy.

Have a Happy and Prosperous New Year (prosperity of course meaning more ammo and more guns).

Jim H.





I was not impressed either, as for accuracy I was more worried about shooting another Chrony then groups.
Russ

The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3617 Posts

Posted - January 05 2019 :  4:16:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sometimes the 'newest & latest' isn't the 'Greatest'. For .38 snubbies, I'll stick with my dwindling stock of the 125 grain Fed nylon Chief load (it's not like I'm shooting a lot of people on a regular basis... it'll probably last awhile) or my larger stock of Speer 135+P Gold Dot. They've been proven.. at least to me.

Marketing departments seldom pay attention to 'Real World' results. But, they do know a lot of really big words words to put into their add copy.

YMMV



Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Dov
Advanced Member

USA
2746 Posts

Posted - January 05 2019 :  11:43:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

Sometimes the 'newest & latest' isn't the 'Greatest'. For .38 snubbies, I'll stick with my dwindling stock of the 125 grain Fed nylon Chief load (it's not like I'm shooting a lot of people on a regular basis... it'll probably last awhile) or my larger stock of Speer 135+P Gold Dot. They've been proven.. at least to me.

Marketing departments seldom pay attention to 'Real World' results. But, they do know a lot of really big words words to put into their add copy.

YMMV






Really wish Federal would produce those Chief's nyclad cartridges again.

I bought couple boxes of those smurf (blue) bullets years ago for then gf to try since she had health issues that caused lots of joint pain.

Gave last of them away to elderly friend for his home defense 38 when I saw he had it loaded with remanufactered RNL.

Don’t regret doing that but could use some of those low recoil but effect loads now myself.

Thought about trying Glasser Silver, Ed Lovett likes Glasser/MagSafe in snubbies.

Don’t think MagSafe is around anymore.
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Evan
Administrator

34549 Posts

Posted - January 06 2019 :  2:51:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ed shot gelatin with Glaser at contact range at our shop and the cavities were very impressive!

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5647 Posts

Posted - January 06 2019 :  3:34:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The other site I hang out on--more for entertainment than education--the resident 'expert' continually lambasts those who trust actual street results rather than 'science' and 'physics', which definitively proves that MSFP's in 9mm are the only weapons suitable for self defense, and that it doesn't really matter which bullet you put in it, they all work pretty much the same. Those of us who A)concern ourselves with examples from real life; B)believe that 1911's or (gasp) revawvers are OK for carry; C)rely on BTDT tactics and positive outcomes; D)don't mind safeties and/or hammers on our semiautos; and E)dare to disagree with him on any subject--well, we just aren't 'evolved' in our self defense notions. One of his truisms is that the .357 JHP load--you know, the ones with 90+ percent stopping rates--have no more ability to stop bad guys than any other load. But he does provide some entertainment.

I like gel tests, if done properly; but I compare real-life results to the performance of the load(s) in gel. If such-n-such a load has really good street results, and it performs [this way] in gel, I'd expect a different load that performs the same way in gel is probably not a bad choice. Then again, there are those loads that have done quite well in real life, but look really bad in gel. So, I guess you pick what you're comfortable with--as long as you don't be stupid--and after that, the biggest thing to be concerned about is whether to use strawberry or grape jelly on your PBJ sammich. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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gauchobill
Advanced Member

1141 Posts

Posted - January 06 2019 :  3:59:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One load that comes to mind as performing poorly in ballistic gelation but very well in the street is the Winchester 9mm 127 grain+P+; it hardly expands in the gel tests I have looked at. So, does that mean that penetration or high impact velocities are more important than expansion? I recognize that any bullet that strikes bone may expand, or ricochet through tissue creating a large wound channel; however, ricochet is one of those highly variable factors whose variability includes, among other things, what gets in the way of the ricochet.
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CW2 Ralph Long
Average Member

USA
411 Posts

Posted - January 13 2019 :  8:59:14 PM  Show Profile  Click to see CW2 Ralph Long's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I anxiously looked for a deal on the .38 HST; got rounds from two different lot numbers. When I finally got to test it in my Colt Agent and S&W 638, I found only a couple of rounds exceeded 810 FPS.; most were in the mid 780's to 795 FPS. When shot them through my "hillbilly" clothing barrier of T-shirt sweatshirt and denim, all rounds expanded to .68-.70 in. The recoil was mild and I believe, with the right modern powder, Federal could despense with the "+P" designation. It certainly doesn't come close to touching the manufacturer's advertised velocity of 890 FPS. Till we get some "results from the field," I'm not sure it rates $1.00 a shot.

“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed;
if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may
come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”

Winston Churchill
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Barry in IN
Senior Member

USA
656 Posts

Posted - January 14 2019 :  1:59:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The: HST 130 Micro accuracy.
I got about the same accuracy as Russ. At the 50-foot line, I got 5” for six rounds from the bench with my 4” S&W 65. That’s twice as large as what the otherwise worst load did that day. No signs of tumbling. Fairly even spread too, not 5+1 or 4+2 or anything of the sort.
Surprising and disappointing.

Or my name ain't Nathan Arizona!
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heavyweight
Senior Member

USA
847 Posts

Posted - January 14 2019 :  3:34:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My experience with the HST Micro 130 has been adequate penetration and really good expansion. Out of my 2" LCR I'm not overly concerned about accuracy. I'll gladly pay a buck per round. Well...maybe not "gladly".
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5647 Posts

Posted - January 14 2019 :  8:17:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I seem to remember the old inverted wadcutter resulted in poor accuracy BITD, at least in my experience. People smarter than me suggested it mighta been caused by the bullet wanting to turn so the heavier base--from being 'backwards'--would to be in front, like physics says it should be, which would cause the keyholing issue also. I wonder if that might be part of the issue with this newer load? Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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arty
Junior Member

116 Posts

Posted - January 15 2019 :  4:06:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was able to put 5 HST 38 special +p rounds into an inch at 6 yards, shooting with one hand, double action, standing using a KCLR. I couldn't do this with Remington Golden Saber 38+p or similar loads.

It has soft recoil because the velocities are lower than you would expect. It is easy to shoot and accurate close up. I think that it makes a reasonable load for a light, small revolver. Arthritis creeps in at my age, and I find it hard to deal with heavy loads in a light revolver.
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Russ Larges
Moderator

USA
2410 Posts

Posted - January 15 2019 :  5:19:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I need to add, I shot 5 more rounds at the same distance and got a much better group, 2-3 inches. Did not have to worry about my Chrony so much.

The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper
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Evan
Administrator

34549 Posts

Posted - January 16 2019 :  4:54:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Got some 90gr Hornady eraser tip non p+ .38 Specs. Now if the temp would get where the nurse I live with would approve I could go chrono it. I've got a Smith 442 with the standard grips really slips nicely into a pocket holster. I bought some Hogue's for it, but in a pocket holster it looks like a tumor.

I've seen a kazillion jhp and lhps expand in desperado's but at 76 my hand stinging for a 1/2 hr after shooting isn't as exciting as it was at 25.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5647 Posts

Posted - January 16 2019 :  7:27:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can remember when a box of the Federal 125gr HP out of a Ruger Speed Six was fun. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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