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 .44Spl in a .44Mag carbine?
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5426 Posts

Posted - October 19 2018 :  7:14:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A scary thing happened today. While I was playing with--er, familiarizing myself with--my new GP100 (posted in 'Wheelguns' section), I got to wondering: Would .44Spl work in a semi-auto .44Mag carbine? Got a Ruger Deerfield, and if it will function with Special loads, it would be really convenient to have one load for both guns. Granted, I can easily just try the loads in the carbine when they get here, but if somebody else has tried this and it won't work, I'd rather know first and not waste the time, effort, and ammo.

I'm thinking of a hard-cast WC or SWC load for the pistol; would non-jacketed bullets cause leading issues in the gas port of the carbine? Any advice, opinions, and suggestions appreciated. Thanks. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?

Dov
Advanced Member

USA
2702 Posts

Posted - October 20 2018 :  07:10:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wouldnít think most special loads would reliably cycle magnum auto.

But thatís just a guess.

Depending on the action type you might be able to pull piston to avoid short cycling malfunctions and use it like a straight pull bolt action with specials. Iíve seen people do that with SKS to avoid chasing reloadble brass.

Could see doing that with young/beginner shooters for lower recoil and no worries about multiple inadvertent shots.
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revjen45
Advanced Member

2297 Posts

Posted - October 20 2018 :  12:28:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I didn't know people used reloadable brass in an SKS. Land o' Goshen! Will wonders never cease?

I found out that underpowered loads which are not quite up to functional pressures can cause the ugliest double feed stoppages imaginable.

Better to perish in the struggle for freedom than live to see defeat.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3396 Posts

Posted - October 20 2018 :  4:39:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would not want to be running cast lead bullets in that operating action. Gas port fouling is a real possibility, and a major PITA to get out. Jacketed or plated would be a much better choice.

If you had a jacketed/plated bullet load.... in a heavier weight (225-250 grains) that a relatively quick burning powder would get out the barrel of the GP-100 revolver in the 850/900 fps range, it would likely do something in the 1150+ range in the longer carbine barrel... and might function the action. It's worth playing with at the reloading bench.






Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5426 Posts

Posted - October 20 2018 :  6:38:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, keep it coming. After I posted the question, my 'Well duh' switch flipped; I actually know better than to shoot lead through a gas-ported rifle.
Underwood has two loads that look likely--a 200gr JHP and a 245gr jacketed flat point. A question there would be whether the JFP would be suitable for pigs and deer. It has a pretty wide front, so I don't know why it wouldn't be as effective as a LSWC; but I also wouldn't want to wound a critter due to my ignorance. All help still appreciated. Thanks again. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9722 Posts

Posted - October 22 2018 :  10:04:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've got one of those but never even thought about .44 spl...hmm.

I do have my doubts, it does not work very well with mild loads and I have not even tried SWCs in this one. I had one years ago and I think I tried SWC in that one but I don't recall how that worked.

Then again, you are on the right track - .44 Spl. works fine in lever guns

Jim H.

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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5426 Posts

Posted - October 22 2018 :  3:05:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
JimH, I'll direct this to you, but anybody is free to respond. I understand the efficacy of using larger bore HCWC and wide-meplat SWC bullets on game. My question is: Would a FMJ flat-point bullet be as effective? Somehow I got it in mind that being jacketed, it would cause them to 'slip through' rather than crush tissue. Am I correct, or full of prune juice? Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
If pro-gunners are as murderous as anti-gunners claim, why are there so many anti-gunners still running their mouths?
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3396 Posts

Posted - October 22 2018 :  4:09:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ace, I'm not Jim, but I'll chip in.

Lead isn't good in your gun because if fouls gas ports. Plate the same bullet with copper and the fouling issue disappears.... even though it is still, technically, a lead bullet. I do not know what bullets in that area might be available.And, some plated bullet makers do caution
about certain velocity levels.

But, Elmer Keith was hot loading .44 Specials in sturdy S&W Triple Lock DA revolvers, and getting 1250+ fps from 255 grain bullets without blowing up the gun. He was flirting with established pressure limits, but it worked.

The .44 Mag carbine is proofed to .44 Mag power/pressure levels. I can see no logical reason why loading .44 Spl cases to levels approaching that would not result in a .44 Spl carbine load driving a plated (or fully-jacketed) 250-260 grain SWC or FP to velocities in the 1500+ range, from the longer barrel of the carbine, and at pressure levels it was designed for.

The only difference between a .44 Spl case and a .44 Mag case is the 1/8 inch added to the Mag to keep it from loading in older, weaker, .44 Spl revolvers. Keith showed the shorter case could deliver.

A 250-260 grain. 44 Spl SWC or FP at 1500+ fps from a carbine is going to be every bit as effective as the same bullet driven to 1400+ fps from a 6-inch .44 Mag revolver. That's nothing to sneer at when busting hogs. BTDT

Given a choice between a big metplat FP and a SWC I think I'd go with the FP. It punches just as well, but seems to disrupt more tissue.

Free advice... so it's worth every penny you paid for it.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.

Edited by - Chris Christian on October 22 2018 4:14:06 PM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9722 Posts

Posted - October 24 2018 :  09:48:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

JimH, I'll direct this to you, but anybody is free to respond. I understand the efficacy of using larger bore HCWC and wide-meplat SWC bullets on game. My question is: Would a FMJ flat-point bullet be as effective? Somehow I got it in mind that being jacketed, it would cause them to 'slip through' rather than crush tissue. Am I correct, or full of prune juice? Ace



I do think that an alloy bullet might be slightly more effective given the same size meplat but I doubt it is so much as one might notice much (a bunch of other factors - including placement - might have more bearing).

I've been playing with the Browning .45 flat point FMJ factory load. Haven't shot anything that bleeds but it makes a bigger hole than a .357 magnum 145 hollow point in test media (test media however isn't the be all, end all, no matter what you are using).

I'm sure I shot some of the cast bullets in my old carbine. But I don't think it was a lot.

While I would agree with Chris that in theory the lead might shave and the lube certainly makes the fouling "sticky" I've shot 10s of thousands of 130 gr Alloy #2 bullets in an M1 Carbine. I've sure I had to clean them more often but they still worked (actually still do).

Those were RN sort of pointy bullets - they were not any more effective than ball, though they did penetrate well.

Jim

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gw
Advanced Member

4469 Posts

Posted - October 25 2018 :  08:47:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
it's been 50 years ago, but when I was a kid a Marine with a large M1 carbine collection and plenty of reloading knowledge moved into an old house near my dad's farm.

he cast bullets for the little carbine including lead hollow points disigned for the 32/20.

some carbines worked well, no leading noted, other manufacturer's carbine were miserable, leading badly including the gas port.

actual bore dimension and condition were likely the difference

all gas checked cast bullets worked, hollow point cast bullet were deadly on anything shot.

he used a punch during sizing that gave the bullet a more rounded ogive, he worked up loads for the carbine that would feed in the little rifle, then used that combination in his Ruger Blackhawk, not the other way around.

the Deerfield uses a gas system simular to the mini 14 I guess.

whether it leads badly would likely vary from one rifle to another, I'd probably have to try it being the way I am.

a gas checked bullet should be a good last resort, I have no need for a gas check in cast handgun loads though, leading has not been a problem.

feeding is another issue, bullet shape and overall length might take some tweeking.

you might long load ( seating debth) the bullet to improve feeding in the carbine and still have a round that works through the GP100.

it's easy to long load a .44 special case to magnum levels for the carbine, but I'd pass on using that in the GP100

(I've been holding out on the GP100 until Ruger chambers one in magnum length...)

all this is a handloading problem, if we're talking factory ammo you're stuck with what you can buy.

for what it's worth Buffalo Bore has said some of their .44 special loads are the correct length and will function in the Deerfield, all their cast loads are gas checked.

I used cast .44 special loads in a Marlin lever gun with no leading issues, those were all standard special loads at lower velocities, velocity didn't step up all that much from the carbine if I remember correctly...

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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