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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9844 Posts

Posted - August 23 2018 :  09:11:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess I'm late to the party as usual but someone recently brought my attention to this new offering from Wilson Combat. Now without first hand experience it is not my place to pass judgment but I do have a few questions and observations.

First, Bill's reasoning was a carbine based on the AR-15 that fired a cartridge close in ballistics to a 30-30. I can certainly see some merit in that - the 30-30 is a fantastic all around cartridge for 200 yards and under (which I suspect covers about 95% of the practical rifle use for civilians in the U.S.)

The ballistics are as follows for factory ammo:

110gr. Sierra HP-V, 2600fps, 1651FP ME
110gr. Lehigh CC, 2600fps, 1651FP ME
125gr Sierra SBT PH, 2525fps, 1770FP ME
125gr Speer TNT, 2525fps, 1770FP ME
130gr Speer HP, 2475fps, 1769FP ME
130gr Speer FN HC, 2510fps, 1819FP ME
150gr. Speer FN HC, 2260fps, 1701FP ME

Those are from a 16" barrel I think.

Now Muzzle Energy (ME) means zilch to me for comparing the merits of cartridges. There isn't a real mathematical model I think is 100% perfect but in the same caliber with similar design bullets "Power Factor" (which is relative to momentum), while far from perfect is less misleading than ME. So for comparison to the 7.62 X 39 and the 30-30 I'll take a couple of the above that are representative.

Most folks regard the ballistics of the 7.62 Russian Short as a 123 at 2350 out of a 16" AK. That said, I like the 125 gr. Silver Bear which clocks 2450 from my 16" AK and 2550 from my Ruger 18" Mini 30 (which also has a .308 bore which is more likely the cause of the increase). So we have two levels of 7.62 X 39:

123gr at a PF of 289
125 gr at a PF of 306 (AK) and 318 (Mini-30)

The Comparable .30 Hamr are:

125 at a PF of 315
130 at a PF of 322

Clearly it equals or exceeds the 7.62 in similar barrel lengths, but it is a fairly close thing.

Now the 30-30. note that the 30-30 is normally fired from a 20" barrel and gets less in a 16:

150 at a PF of 367
170 at a PF of 374
170 at a PF of 348 (actual from my 16" '94)

I'm not sure if the .300 Hamr will shoot and feed 170 gr. bullet, or more importantly will feed 200 gr expanding subsonic, so that remains to be seen.

I would add that I find even the 20" '94 to be a much handier rifle than a 16" AR - but the ability to have a 10 to 30 shot semi auto does mean something. If the offerings in the Hamr weigh more than 7 lbs (loaded with optic and sling) then that would make it somewhat less attractive to me - but perhaps not to others.

I've also shot critters with 150 gr. 30-30 and 170 gr. 30-30 - over 150 lbs I prefer the 170 gr. but I'd hate to live on the difference.

Here again, everyone must work out their own salvation, we each have a different mission. This new combination might fit someone's "tool box".

Just Ramblin'

Jim H.

PS, some folks compare the 7.62 X 39 to the 30-30. We have a lot of deer shot in our neck of the woods, typically with the 20" SKS - I see a world of difference between those and a deer shot with a 30-30 (the latter dropping them quicker with good hits). This new round may actually come closer with some bullets.

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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - August 23 2018 :  6:22:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So... playing around with the PF numbers Jim provides.... the 130 gr. .300 Hamír provides a scant 5% improvement over the 125 gr. Silver Bear 7.62x39... while falling around 15% short of the 150 gr. .30-30 load.

7.62x39: PF range 289-318
300 Hamír: PF range 315-322
30-30: PF range 348-374

Is that going to be enough for it to catch on?

By comparison, the 150 gr. .30-30 load is around 15-20% higher PF than the 125 gr. Silver Bear (depending on barrel length).

Hard to see what niche the .300 Hamír will fill: the .30-30 is still the superior round for hunting, while the 7.62x39 is close enough for self-defense purposes that it hardly makes sense to choose whatís still a relatively-expensive Ďboutiqueí round, over it.

Or am I missing something?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on August 23 2018 7:40:33 PM
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gw
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4792 Posts

Posted - August 23 2018 :  6:54:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the 7.62x39 does not work well through an AR15

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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WR Moore
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USA
1008 Posts

Posted - August 23 2018 :  7:01:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is that the 7.62 x 40 mm round Wilson bought the rights to some time back? [.223 case trimmed 5 mm, I think, not sure.] There was a couple articles in the Blue Press about it but the promised followup never appeared. Without digging up the issues, IIRC it requires unique/modified magazines.

The extra case length makes it a potentially better cartridge than the Blackout. Someone (Sharps?) has a .25 x 40 mm that would be a legal deer cartridge in a lot of states, but the sectional density of the bullets is less than many .223 bullets. This would seem to make penetration an issue.

Beware the politically obsessed. They are often bright and interesting, but they have something missing in their natures, there is a hole, an empty place and they use politics to fill it up. It leaves them somehow misshapen. Peggy Noonan


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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - August 23 2018 :  7:10:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Wilson Combat site touts the superior ballistics of the .300 Hamír over the .300 BLK and the 7.62x39, for hunting hogs. However, they donít include the .30-30 in their comparison... or the .308...


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on August 23 2018 7:15:31 PM
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LittleBill
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5558 Posts

Posted - August 23 2018 :  7:12:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by WR Moore

Is that the 7.62 x 40 mm round Wilson bought the rights to some time back? [.223 case trimmed 5 mm, I think, not sure.] There was a couple articles in the Blue Press about it but the promised followup never appeared. Without digging up the issues, IIRC it requires unique/modified magazines.

The extra case length makes it a potentially better cartridge than the Blackout. Someone (Sharps?) has a .25 x 40 mm that would be a legal deer cartridge in a lot of states, but the sectional density of the bullets is less than many .223 bullets. This would seem to make penetration an issue.


The Wilson Combat site goes into that in depth. Short answer: itís the improved/evolved version.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on August 23 2018 7:13:00 PM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - August 23 2018 :  7:30:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

the 7.62x39 does not work well through an AR15


Yeah, I guess thatís the niche: it uses the AR15 platform and mags.

OTOH, the SIG 556 xi Russian 7.62x39 is a sweet handy little rifle....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on August 23 2018 7:31:58 PM
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gw
Advanced Member

4792 Posts

Posted - August 24 2018 :  02:33:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the Sig is an AK variant, works well, but not what is wanted.

the AR is favored due to it's ergernomics and modularity

as an example, at one point mlitary units operating close to the Pakistan border wanted an M4 that could use the large caches of AK ammo they were capturing. they wanted to use their rifle setups with enemy ammo to simplify their resupply problems. they were unable to come up with a rifle that met their needs from a reliability standpoint, the 7.62x39 was not a good fit in the AR, the curved magazines required don't work in a straight magwell.

in this case there is a desire to create an AR that is legal for hunting, others want an M4 with improved downrange ballistics for war.

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - August 24 2018 :  07:54:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Knowing that the military is looking to replace the 5.56x45, I wonder if Wilson is thinking that his new cartridge might be a suitable candidate?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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gw
Advanced Member

4792 Posts

Posted - August 24 2018 :  08:13:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
that ship may have sailed

the 300 black out has already been in use

current thinking is to go with a 7.62x51 or something like the 6.5 Creedmoore, the Marines tried to buy some more 5.56 M27s, Congress put them on hold waiting on the Army's new choice.

the new ammo will probably have a polymer case, maybe a polymer bullet at ultra high velocity, and be a true 800 meter battle rifle.

but I suspect the 5.56 will be retained for secondary issue and special missions were the direct imprigment 5.56 is preferred.

the piston gun bleeds off excess gas into the piston housing, that may reduce the effectiveness of a can in lowering the overall sound signature. DI guns preffered.

that's current thinkng among some, change is constant in the Army....

Edited by - gw on August 24 2018 08:36:08 AM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9844 Posts

Posted - August 24 2018 :  10:31:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

the 7.62x39 does not work well through an AR15



It works sort of well in mine with the right magazines - but mine is an MGI that takes AK mags.

Unfortunately they set it up with the plastic version and regular issue steel mags have to be fitted - Mag-pul and other plastic mags work fine.

A friend has a S&W standard AR in both 5.45 and 7.62 X 39 - his works fine with Colt and C-products mags but nothing else.

But yeah, I'd say they don't work as well across the board.

With some bullets the Blackout does not work as well as 5.56 - naturally they are the bullets I prefer (200 gr subsonic with a large cavity) - they do work with the specialized Magpul .300 mags.

Jim H.

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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9844 Posts

Posted - August 24 2018 :  10:34:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by WR Moore

Is that the 7.62 x 40 mm round Wilson bought the rights to some time back? [.223 case trimmed 5 mm, I think, not sure.] There was a couple articles in the Blue Press about it but the promised followup never appeared. Without digging up the issues, IIRC it requires unique/modified magazines.

The extra case length makes it a potentially better cartridge than the Blackout. Someone (Sharps?) has a .25 x 40 mm that would be a legal deer cartridge in a lot of states, but the sectional density of the bullets is less than many .223 bullets. This would seem to make penetration an issue.



That sounds right WR

It might be a penetration issue in the lower weights - I shot a deer with the Barnes Vor-TX 110. Shot it in the neck, total penetration was right at 8" (it gives like 16" in bare 10% gel).

Jim

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gw
Advanced Member

4792 Posts

Posted - August 24 2018 :  10:55:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by gw

the 7.62x39 does not work well through an AR15



It works sort of well in mine with the right magazines - but mine is an MGI that takes AK mags.

Unfortunately they set it up with the plastic version and regular issue steel mags have to be fitted - Mag-pul and other plastic mags work fine.

A friend has a S&W standard AR in both 5.45 and 7.62 X 39 - his works fine with Colt and C-products mags but nothing else.

But yeah, I'd say they don't work as well across the board.

With some bullets the Blackout does not work as well as 5.56 - naturally they are the bullets I prefer (200 gr subsonic with a large cavity) - they do work with the specialized Magpul .300 mags.

Jim H.



By the time they got the 7.62x39 to work, the Special Forces troops that wanted one had moved on, the first runs they tested were dismall performers, once the reputation for failure is spread it sticks.

they were required to work with enemy magazines

one benefit, when you're in places you're not supposed to be, you don't want to leave empty cases and magazines laying around when you leave. that can be handled by using the other guys weapons, but the M4's modularity was desireable.

there were several issues besides reliability, they tended to break during full auto testing. these outfits want the capability even though their doctrine says to avoid it's use.

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on August 24 2018 10:59:22 AM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9844 Posts

Posted - August 24 2018 :  11:12:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
GW - that all makes sense for .mil folks working in remote areas.

Someone else tried this with something I think they called an AR-47? But that is all you can use (cannot convert it back to 5.56 mags).

Probably the inspiration of the MGI - Hydra.

I'm fairly pleased with my Hydra but I wish they had set it up with standard steel AK mags. Since all the parts are available I may someday try to come up with a mag catch that works with standard (it holds them too high as it is).

Up to now I simply set up some of the steel mags and mark them - they still work in AKs just fine - but it is annoying.

The Hydra has interchangeable mag wells (they once made one that took Grease gun mags which I'm still looking for!) but I have no doubt that this makes it a little "flimsier" - so far it works for me but I'm not stressing it a lot. It is the one I registered as an SBR due to its versatility.

Jim

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gw
Advanced Member

4792 Posts

Posted - August 24 2018 :  11:23:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wilson is a famous pig killer, I'm sure he's looking for a better mouse trap.

something he can use his night vision stuff on...

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - August 24 2018 :  11:39:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And it sounds like he just enjoys tinkering with this stuff...

He's a lucky man, to be making his living doing what he loves.

But for the rest of us, practicality and cost factor in...

I really like my SIG556xiR. Since I've got all those AK mags, I figured a 'regular' AK would be a wise investment. I just bought a Palmetto State Armory AK off Gunbroker, haven't received it yet. It survived the crazy 5000-round torture test in the hands of the 'AK Operators Union', looked like a good bet for a (relatively) cheap AK.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on August 24 2018 11:48:36 AM
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Pat Taylor
New Member

USA
57 Posts

Posted - August 24 2018 :  11:57:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you hand load ammo and build your own rifles the 300 hamr sounds pretty handy. Galil Ace in 7.62x39 loaded with Silver Bear would probably win out if I had to buy off the shelf.

30-30 in a 5.56 AR does have my interest.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3662 Posts

Posted - August 24 2018 :  11:58:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

I guess I'm late to the party as usual but someone recently brought my attention to this new offering from Wilson Combat. Now without first hand experience it is not my place to pass judgment but I do have a few questions and observations.

First, Bill's reasoning was a carbine based on the AR-15 that fired a cartridge close in ballistics to a 30-30. I can certainly see some merit in that - the 30-30 is a fantastic all around cartridge for 200 yards and under (which I suspect covers about 95% of the practical rifle use for civilians in the U.S.)

The ballistics are as follows for factory ammo:

110gr. Sierra HP-V, 2600fps, 1651FP ME
110gr. Lehigh CC, 2600fps, 1651FP ME
125gr Sierra SBT PH, 2525fps, 1770FP ME
125gr Speer TNT, 2525fps, 1770FP ME
130gr Speer HP, 2475fps, 1769FP ME
130gr Speer FN HC, 2510fps, 1819FP ME
150gr. Speer FN HC, 2260fps, 1701FP ME

Those are from a 16" barrel I think.

Now Muzzle Energy (ME) means zilch to me for comparing the merits of cartridges. There isn't a real mathematical model I think is 100% perfect but in the same caliber with similar design bullets "Power Factor" (which is relative to momentum), while far from perfect is less misleading than ME. So for comparison to the 7.62 X 39 and the 30-30 I'll take a couple of the above that are representative.

Most folks regard the ballistics of the 7.62 Russian Short as a 123 at 2350 out of a 16" AK. That said, I like the 125 gr. Silver Bear which clocks 2450 from my 16" AK and 2550 from my Ruger 18" Mini 30 (which also has a .308 bore which is more likely the cause of the increase). So we have two levels of 7.62 X 39:

123gr at a PF of 289
125 gr at a PF of 306 (AK) and 318 (Mini-30)

The Comparable .30 Hamr are:

125 at a PF of 315
130 at a PF of 322

Clearly it equals or exceeds the 7.62 in similar barrel lengths, but it is a fairly close thing.

Now the 30-30. note that the 30-30 is normally fired from a 20" barrel and gets less in a 16:

150 at a PF of 367
170 at a PF of 374
170 at a PF of 348 (actual from my 16" '94)

I'm not sure if the .300 Hamr will shoot and feed 170 gr. bullet, or more importantly will feed 200 gr expanding subsonic, so that remains to be seen.

I would add that I find even the 20" '94 to be a much handier rifle than a 16" AR - but the ability to have a 10 to 30 shot semi auto does mean something. If the offerings in the Hamr weigh more than 7 lbs (loaded with optic and sling) then that would make it somewhat less attractive to me - but perhaps not to others.

I've also shot critters with 150 gr. 30-30 and 170 gr. 30-30 - over 150 lbs I prefer the 170 gr. but I'd hate to live on the difference.

Here again, everyone must work out their own salvation, we each have a different mission. This new combination might fit someone's "tool box".

Just Ramblin'

Jim H.

PS, some folks compare the 7.62 X 39 to the 30-30. We have a lot of deer shot in our neck of the woods, typically with the 20" SKS - I see a world of difference between those and a deer shot with a 30-30 (the latter dropping them quicker with good hits). This new round may actually come closer with some bullets.




Based upon my work with the .300 Whisper (and the .300 BLK is about the same) it appears that the 30 HMR is about 150/175 fps faster from the same barrel length.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9844 Posts

Posted - August 25 2018 :  09:05:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That is about my experience Chris, though I find that the .300 is nearly the same in a 12" barrel as the published figures as the 16" (actual chronoed from 16" barrels by various people). I don't have a 16" .300 myself - I do like the little Ruger Ranch rifle so that may change.

I don't know what kind of powder the .30 Hamr uses so I don't know if it would do that.

I have a new 9" .300 Barrel installed but have only zeroed the gun, not chronographed the loads.

Jim H.

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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3662 Posts

Posted - August 25 2018 :  3:14:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

That is about my experience Chris, though I find that the .300 is nearly the same in a 12" barrel as the published figures as the 16" (actual chronoed from 16" barrels by various people). I don't have a 16" .300 myself - I do like the little Ruger Ranch rifle so that may change.

I don't know what kind of powder the .30 Hamr uses so I don't know if it would do that.

I have a new 9" .300 Barrel installed but have only zeroed the gun, not chronographed the loads.

Jim H.



The powder used does indeed make a difference. With the 'standard' rifle type powders I have found a 25-40 fps increase per barrel inch
to be about the norm.

I finally settled on AA 1600 in the loads I worked up for the 300 Whisper, with bullets of 125 and 150 grains, in barrel lengths of 10 and 18 inches, and found 25 fps to be consistent in both barrel lengths... in fact scarily consistent! Other powders might produce different results.

Chris Christian
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3662 Posts

Posted - August 25 2018 :  3:17:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

[quote]Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

That is about my experience Chris, though I find that the .300 is nearly the same in a 12" barrel as the published figures as the 16" (actual chronoed from 16" barrels by various people). I don't have a 16" .300 myself - I do like the little Ruger Ranch rifle so that may change.

I don't know what kind of powder the .30 Hamr uses so I don't know if it would do that.

I have a new 9" .300 Barrel installed but have only zeroed the gun, not chronographed the loads.

Jim H.



The powder used does indeed make a difference. With the 'standard' rifle type powders I have found a 25-40 fps increase per barrel inch
to be about the norm.

I finally settled on AA 1600 in the loads I worked up for the 300 Whisper, with bullets of 125 and 150 grains, in barrel lengths of 10 and 18 inches, and found 25 fps to be consistent in both barrel lengths... in fact scarily consistent! Other powders might produce different results.

Interestingly, with handguns, and faster burning powders, I find 50 fps per barrel inch to be more the norm.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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ironhead7544
New Member

USA
57 Posts

Posted - August 26 2018 :  09:18:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Speer has a 150 gr Gold Dot bullet made for 300 Blackout velocities. Speer shows handloads up to 2150 fps. That is very close to what you get with a 20" 30-30 carbine. The 30 Hamr could probably be pushed faster with that bullet.

I see little difference between the 7.62x39 and the 300 Blackout. 125 gr bullets at about the same speed. The brass cases for the 7.62x39 are more expensive than the 223/5.56 since I can pick up the 223/5.56 for free at the range and convert them to 300 Blackout. Reloaders like free brass.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9844 Posts

Posted - August 27 2018 :  11:55:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I suppose mileage varies, but the stuff I buy at Walmart gets 2100 from a 20" barrel with a 170 and about 2250 to 2300 in a 150 gr. (both are somewhat less than factory advertised velocities).

Oddly enough with my two 16" 30-30s I'm still getting 2000 with a 170 though a 150 might dip down below 2200.

I may have clocked the 160 gr at around the same as the 150s (it is listed higher but, curiously, out of a 24" barrel).

Probably those differences with the .30 Hamr would not be much different but, for me (doesn't have to be for everyone) if the Hamr will not function with a good flat point 170 gr JSP I'd still put in the same general class as the Blackout.

Then again it depends on what one is doing, a 150 at 2200 (give or take 100 fps) is likely not a bad general purpose load.

Jim H.

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WR Moore
Advanced Member

USA
1008 Posts

Posted - August 27 2018 :  1:54:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Found the article on the Sharps .25 cartridge,it's a .25 x 45 mm. Just neck the case up to .25.

RRA had/has an LAR47 that uses the AK mags. Supposed to solve all the feed issues, but doesn't appear to be convertible to AR mags.

If the sometimes foggy memory is right, AA 1680 is supposed to be THE powder for the 7.62 x 40 mm.

Beware the politically obsessed. They are often bright and interesting, but they have something missing in their natures, there is a hole, an empty place and they use politics to fill it up. It leaves them somehow misshapen. Peggy Noonan



Edited by - WR Moore on August 28 2018 10:16:38 AM
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