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Evan
Administrator

34549 Posts

Posted - February 05 2018 :  3:48:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The biggest problem I see with these guns is the urge to load them down with everything except backup lights and a toilet paper dispenser. I think a side saddle and sling are the limit we should consider UNLESS you're trying to impress all the other tacticool dudes at the range and not survival!

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

Yonder
Average Member

USA
252 Posts

Posted - February 05 2018 :  6:53:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have heard that a white sock on the muzzle is tactical.

...And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
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Arvinator
Advanced Member

USA
5449 Posts

Posted - February 06 2018 :  8:40:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would might consider the 20 ga but not sure why I might need one right now. A sidesaddle and big gold bead on the front is as far as tacti-cool I'd want to get.

Be honest, fair, and always prepared...
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5645 Posts

Posted - February 06 2018 :  9:14:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've played with the one at the store, not got to fire it. Just simply couldn't find a comfortable way to 'aim' it, cannot come up with a practical use for one. Too short for a tomato stake, too expensive for a pepper plant stake. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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heavyweight
Senior Member

USA
846 Posts

Posted - February 07 2018 :  08:08:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I inherited a Mossy 500 with no butt stock and pistol grip. I tried it and promptly got a butt stock for it.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - February 07 2018 :  1:14:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

I've played with the one at the store, not got to fire it. Just simply couldn't find a comfortable way to 'aim' it, cannot come up with a practical use for one. Too short for a tomato stake, too expensive for a pepper plant stake. Ace


Ace, if you ever do get a chance to fire one, you may find it's not all that bad.

Like Keith said regarding traditional pistol-grip only guns, you need to find a stance where the gun is 'locked in' by the tension of your muscles; and move your point of aim by 'rotating' that stance.

I found that by starting with light loads, and starting so close to the target that I hit every time, and gradually moving back, that I was able to hit from a variety of positions: holding the gun out in front of me so I was looking over it, and even holding it down by my side and pointing it.

Not a substitute for a stocked gun, not accurate at long distances. But close-in, with a little practice, not that hard to hit with.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on February 07 2018 1:23:50 PM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9814 Posts

Posted - February 09 2018 :  09:32:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Yonder

I have heard that a white sock on the muzzle is tactical.





Shades of Charles Askins

Jim

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Evan
Administrator

34549 Posts

Posted - February 09 2018 :  12:11:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And Evan Marshall though that is the only time I agreed with Charley.

We were doing Simmunitions training at Fort Chaffee at midnight and I showed them a field expedient front sight when their flashlight took a dump. I pulled off one boot and removed the white sock I was wearing over the approved black ones and tied it to the front of my M4 and we went hunting terrorists with out a Sure Fire!

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3612 Posts

Posted - February 09 2018 :  2:27:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Funny, but not ineffective. Many years ago when I was poor... in both money and guns... I acquire an old Remington 870 that lacked a front sight. I wrapped a lot of white surgical tape around the muzzle end of the barrel and felt quite confident that I could find the front end, and aim if effectively,in a home defense situation.

It's not that far fetched

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9814 Posts

Posted - February 10 2018 :  12:51:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Evan

And Evan Marshall though that is the only time I agreed with Charley.

We were doing Simmunitions training at Fort Chaffee at midnight and I showed them a field expedient front sight when their flashlight took a dump. I pulled off one boot and removed the white sock I was wearing over the approved black ones and tied it to the front of my M4 and we went hunting terrorists with out a Sure Fire!



Yeah, that would be about the only thing I might agree with him on as well.

Someone did send me a copy of a section of his 1938 book just this week. It was perhaps the best written article of his I've ever read (grammatically not technically).

By the time I finished it I wanted to dump all my autos and start carrying a Colt SAA in .45 Colt!

As some know Col. Cooper went to war with a 5.5" Colt SAA (the same gun he loaned to the kid who mowed his grass to shoot in the Big Bear leather-slap...Bob Munden). The Col. used it once successfully to stop a Japanese officer who tried to cleave him with a Samauri sword but over all he was unsatisfied with the gun.

I asked him once if it was Elmer Keith who convinced him it was better than a 1911 and he said no, that it was Charles Askins. I didn't ask just how, but I suspect it was that book.

Sorry to ramble off topic there.

Jim H.

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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - February 10 2018 :  3:55:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by Evan

And Evan Marshall though that is the only time I agreed with Charley.

We were doing Simmunitions training at Fort Chaffee at midnight and I showed them a field expedient front sight when their flashlight took a dump. I pulled off one boot and removed the white sock I was wearing over the approved black ones and tied it to the front of my M4 and we went hunting terrorists with out a Sure Fire!



Yeah, that would be about the only thing I might agree with him on as well.

Someone did send me a copy of a section of his 1938 book just this week. It was perhaps the best written article of his I've ever read (grammatically not technically).

By the time I finished it I wanted to dump all my autos and start carrying a Colt SAA in .45 Colt!

As some know Col. Cooper went to war with a 5.5" Colt SAA (the same gun he loaned to the kid who mowed his grass to shoot in the Big Bear leather-slap...Bob Munden). The Col. used it once successfully to stop a Japanese officer who tried to cleave him with a Samauri sword but over all he was unsatisfied with the gun.

I asked him once if it was Elmer Keith who convinced him it was better than a 1911 and he said no, that it was Charles Askins. I didn't ask just how, but I suspect it was that book.

Sorry to ramble off topic there.

Jim H.


Nah.... keep ramblin’.... please!


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on February 10 2018 4:20:35 PM
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BatteryOaksBilly
Junior Member

USA
211 Posts

Posted - February 11 2018 :  09:09:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
P L E A S E!!!!!!!!

Billy Bruton..Carry every step..Shoot every day!
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revjen45
Advanced Member

2335 Posts

Posted - February 11 2018 :  12:57:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It may not ooze with tacti-kewl, but I would choose a plain vanilla Persuader over the Shock Wave or its 870 clone.
Given that my hands are arthritic the bird's head pump guns have low appeal to me.

Better to perish in the struggle for freedom than live to see defeat.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3612 Posts

Posted - February 11 2018 :  2:16:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by revjen45

It may not ooze with tacti-kewl, but I would choose a plain vanilla Persuader over the Shock Wave or its 870 clone.
Given that my hands are arthritic the bird's head pump guns have low appeal to me.



Just MHO on these new "tacti-kewl" shotguns.... but ya can take a reguular stock shot gun... jus' sorta tuck the butt under yer arm... and get somthin' jus' about as short.

Then OMG!!! Ya kin then slap the butt onta yer shoulder an git somethin' more accrete ifin ya need it.

Maybe jus' my old Southern Boy thinkin', but I can imagine why I would want one when I got some good shotguns right here

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - February 11 2018 :  2:27:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gabe Suarez is marketing a folding PDW arm brace for the Tac-14 and a non-folding one for the Shockwave. Best of both worlds?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on February 11 2018 2:37:00 PM
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3612 Posts

Posted - February 11 2018 :  2:39:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

Gabe Suarez is marketing a folding PDW arm brace for the Tac-14 and a non-folding one for the Shockwave. Best of both worlds?





Or, just trying to make a buck off the naive?
Lemmee see... buy a new shot gun, then buy the new arm brace, just to turn it into the regular shotgun you already have? Makes perfect sense to me

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - February 11 2018 :  3:16:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looks to be considerably shorter than an 18” stocked shotgun. Four inches shorter, if my math is right... wait, let me grab a calculator... hmmm.... 18” minus 14”.... Yep! 4” shorter!

So yeah: the buyer is paying for that extra 4” of shortness. Whether that’s worth it or not.... not for me to judge.

But sounds like it’s coming close to BatteryOaksBilly’s 12” SBS, only without the ATF paperwork and tax stamp.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on February 11 2018 3:32:46 PM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - February 11 2018 :  3:25:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My sense of Mr. Suarez is that he’s definitely out to make a buck, he doesn’t make any bones about it, describes himself as a capitalist entrepreneur. Hard to fault him for that. You know anybody who’s in business to not make money?

At the same time, he also seems to be serious about shooting and fighting.

I don’t happen to own any of his products, but I’m not sure they’re all worthless....?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on February 11 2018 3:26:21 PM
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revjen45
Advanced Member

2335 Posts

Posted - February 11 2018 :  6:29:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Reply to Chris above
Yup, that's how I see it.
I kind of see the bird's head shotties like a bump stock. Fun to play with but not my choice on a fighting gun.
If I were setting up a rifle for serious social work I would not want such a contraption on it.
If I were choosing a shotgun for negation of an existential threat a base model Persuader would deliver as much go away per $ as I need. Would love a Kel-Tec 25-rd bullpup pump but there are more pressing things to do with money. I won't be executing any high speed low drag missions any time soon so my need for faux full auto or exotic shotties is limited.

Better to perish in the struggle for freedom than live to see defeat.
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retfed89
Advanced Member

USA
1696 Posts

Posted - February 12 2018 :  01:42:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From Chris C "Just MHO on these new "tacti-kewl" shotguns.... but ya can take a reguular stock shot gun... jus' sorta tuck the butt under yer arm... and get somthin' jus' about as short"

Recall range sessions when our firearms guys trained us to do that with the issue Ithaca and 870s. Fitted the stock into your waist area and rolled your wrist enough to have your forearm on top of the stock, helped with the recoil and accuracy. Made the 870 handier going into the 3 deckers, etc. in Boston. Always did this with the shotgun in a "cruiser ready" condition. Oh another advantage with a full stocked 870 is the ability to execute a Butt Stroke. Tends to dampen a BGs hostility. Retfed
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - February 12 2018 :  08:07:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So.... for the purpose of short-range defensive use.... a full-stocked shotgun with a short barrel may represent the ‘best of all possible worlds’?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on February 12 2018 08:12:08 AM
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gauchobill
Advanced Member

1141 Posts

Posted - February 12 2018 :  08:41:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
LB, for my money it does! Seems to be the best of both worlds for shotgun self-defense weapons.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9814 Posts

Posted - February 12 2018 :  10:47:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I really like the idea of a short barreled shotgun (SBS) *with a good solid stock* and almost papered one at the same time I did my SBR.

But, I keep going back to what Chris says - not only is it a hassle for shaving about 4" off my regular scatter gun, then you have to notify the ATF in advance if you take it out of state.

I don't regret going trough the hassle for my little rifle, "Mr. Shorty", but I won't do it again, unless the ATF reverses itself yet again on the brace.

ARs are so easy to take down, I'm not sure that the short ones are worth it unless you have a suppressor - and that is why I went that route myself.

Jim

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Yonder
Average Member

USA
252 Posts

Posted - February 12 2018 :  1:49:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[quote]Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

I really like the idea of a short barreled shotgun (SBS) *with a good solid stock* and almost papered one at the same time I did my SBR.

But, I keep going back to what Chris says - not only is it a hassle for shaving about 4" off my regular scatter gun, then you have to notify the ATF in advance if you take it out of state.

I don't regret going trough the hassle for my little rifle, "Mr. Shorty", but I won't do it again, unless the ATF reverses itself yet again on the brace.

ARs are so easy to take down, I'm not sure that the short ones are worth it unless you have a suppressor - and that is why I went that route myself.

Jim

Maybe this is a tangent for a new thread. What is the configuration of your SBR? I came into 357 Ranch Hand for a hundred bucks with the inclination to SBR it.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

5558 Posts

Posted - February 12 2018 :  4:12:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Shockwave with a PDW brace more or less ‘mimics’ a stocked SBS in size, without all the legal hassles associated with the latter. But I’m not sure how solid the brace would be when it comes to butt-stroking someone with it?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish, that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on February 12 2018 4:13:50 PM
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
3612 Posts

Posted - February 12 2018 :  4:29:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

The Shockwave with a PDW brace more or less ‘mimics’ a stocked SBS in size, without all the legal hassles associated with the latter. But I’m not sure how solid the brace would be when it comes to butt-stroking someone with it?




My guess is that it won't be nearly as effective as a solid piece of hardwood... and might easily break. But, that's just a guess, because I'm not gonna take one of those spindly folding 'thingys' and find out.

OTOH, I'm not much of a 'butt stroke kinda guy'. If he/her gets that close I'll just shove the shotgun into their surprised hands... tell them "Here, hold this"...while I draw a pistol and ventilate them.

Then I can get my shotgun back

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.

Edited by - Chris Christian on February 12 2018 4:36:17 PM
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