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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4363 Posts

Posted - November 06 2017 :  7:04:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Glad to be of service!

I believe Sundlesí opinions, like Jimís, are based on real life shooting of real live critters. For many years heís been a guide in grizzly country, as well as an ammo maker.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on November 06 2017 7:07:31 PM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - November 07 2017 :  08:22:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

So would the converse to that be, 'If you wouldn't choose it to shoot a deer with, why would you rely on it for self-defense against a human?'





That certainly is a personal philosophy of mine though as many will point out - critters can behave differently (and I think a lot more consistently) than humans.

The thing is, in the only peer reviewed study (which is really not about ballistics but *potential* lethal force situations) we know that 90% of people who threaten violence will run away - or at least cease the threatening behavior - when the intended victim just shows he has a gun - without firing a single shot. Another 3-5% cease the attack when shot at and missed.

What is unsaid there is that these are situations reported by others as being the threat of violence - it is unsure how many of them would have actually been attacks had the victim not responds with at least the demonstration of his ability to respond with lethal force.

The other side to the coin is that people come in all sorts of shapes, sizes, mind-set and degrees of effects of mind altering drugs.

Having studied both the hunting aspect and human lethal force I tell my students that you might be faced with a "Pee Wee Herman" or you might be faced with a "Cole Younger" - If you are prepared for Cole then an attacked by Pee Wee, it will probably end up in your favor - if you only prepare for Pee Wee (say a little pocket pistol in .380 and don't train hard to shoot it well) and you wind up being attacked by Cole then that might not work out so well.

Deer and wild boar fall in between those extremes. Me I am extremely unhappy if a critter I shoot does not fall within 2 seconds and my goal is to drop them on the spot - but I don't want folks to think I am successful in that goal more often than not - it is about 50-50. Typically I try to break a major bone because the norm is they run with a heart shot or lung shot.

I've interviewed 7 people shot in the lung - they all killed the person that shot them and they survived (of course or I would not have been able to interview them) - one of those was hit twice in one lung with an 8 X 57 Mauser.

Jim H.


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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - November 07 2017 :  08:29:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Regards .380 ball - there is an example of the disconnect between testing in gel and testing in other materials - additional to gel, not eliminating it.

Most have seen the video of the police officer (in uniform) shooting himself in the hand in a gun shop.

Well that happened within 15 miles of the range I ran for a while and the investigating officer taught classes at my range.

The gun was a little Sig 238 and there was a magazine of 95 gr ball in it. The chamber was empty but the officer wracked the slide and in fact loaded it and while testing the trigger shot himself in the middle finger.

If you look carefully at the video there are 4 people right in the line of fire but none got hit.

The reason is that 95 gr. ball round bounced off the bone in his middle finger and turned 90 degrees to the right and hit the wall behind the clerks head that is showing him the gun!

I know of two other cases in which .380 ball bounced off a sternum - one is on film - it was a square on shot that hit nothing else before being perfectly placed.

If a .380 does not hit bone will be adequate? Probably.

But if we are shooting well and facing a threat we are bout 90% likely to hit bone.

Just sayin'

Jim

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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - November 07 2017 :  09:58:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bullets aren't all that predictabe

trooper Coates was killed by a .22 round that turned in his arm and found it's way into the upper body

in turn at least 2 of his .357 bullets failed to penetrate the upper body of his attacker and traveled under the skin until they exited.

Ronald Reagon was almost done in by a .22 glancing off a door post and into his chest

a retired Federal cop tells me of a .45 acp hollow point that penetrated less than 2 inches on a frontal unobstructed hit,required a second round to get the agent out of trouble

folks are stacked up every year killed by .22s, .25s, and .380s, not toys

my .380 has fmj in it just in case I'm right about penetration, my .357 is another story


"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on November 07 2017 10:15:48 AM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - November 08 2017 :  09:03:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Spot on GW.

For a while we had a detective who when with another agency shot a woman in the face with his 4" .357 shooting the issued 125 gr Remington JHP (the full power one - not a Golden Saber).

The bullet bounced off her cheek bone and she did not go down - but she did drop the gun in her hand so I guess you would call that a success.

The way he described it she was facing him - but he was shooting upward since she had knocked him down - so it was a sort of angled shot - not a huge surprise it bounced off.

Jim

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