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oldmuleskinner
Senior Member

795 Posts

Posted - October 29 2017 :  12:05:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Last Saturday my 10 year old granddaughter shot her first deer, a 4x4 whitetail buck with my Marlin .357 carbine. Her daddy was standing next to her, whispering in her ear. She was pretty excited when it went down and even helped with the gutting. That night, she was a big help with the skinning in my garage. A couple nights later, we cut it up in our kitchen. I was amazed that it didnít gross her out at all.

The rifle was loaded with handloaded Hornady 125 gr hollowpoints. That is the same round that I carried in my 6Ē Combat Magnum when I was a cop back in the 70ís. The bullet broke a rib going in and shredded both lungs and stopped just under the skin in the opposite shoulder. The buck dropped where it stood and hardly twitched. I recovered the bullet and it was expanded to about .60. I would guess that the bullet weighed about 85-90 grains. I donít know for sure, because my dog found it and ate it before I could clean the meat from it.

My granddaughter and her dad are going out after elk this next weekend, but I have to go to the Seattle area on business. I would prefer that she use my Marlin in 44 mag, but she is afraid of the recoil. Her dad will keep any shot within 25 to 50 yards and only let her take a broadside, double lung shot. If I had had the time, I would have loaded and tested some 158 gr soft points for her, but I think that the 125 grainers will work just fine, especially after seeing what the .357 did on her deer.

Her dad and I are bow hunters and he shot his first deer with a bow at about 40 yards when he was also 10 years old. Watching him shoot that deer was the biggest hunting thrill that I ever had, and I think that he felt the same when Kyla shot her first deer last week. Bow season opens up in a little over three weeks and Iím ready. Iím now using a crossbow due to having had shoulder surgery a couple of years back.

Each of us is an innkeeper, and we decide if there is room for Jesus.
Neal A. Maxwell

Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1683 Posts

Posted - October 29 2017 :  02:30:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello Sir,

Thank you for that outstanding report! It warms my heart to know that the next generation is taking to the field and learning how to be ethical hunters. That's one heck of a memory that you just built, for everybody involved! I know she will cherish it as much as you do. Well done Sir, and please pass along our congratulations to Kyla on her first deer!

V/R
Mike
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Badge
Advanced Member

USA
1648 Posts

Posted - October 29 2017 :  07:12:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Out standing. Get them started early. The projectile obviously did the job as intended as did your Granddaughter firing it.

MSS
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Pop Pop
Senior Member

USA
683 Posts

Posted - October 29 2017 :  10:44:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess we will find out whether the 357 can take down an elk or not. Any ways, congrats on a fine job by Kyla. Big thing oldmuleskinner , the harvesting of the first deer! She did fine...

Pop Pop
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5046 Posts

Posted - October 29 2017 :  10:14:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good on her and her deer. Can't say I'd agree with a .357, in any iteration, for something as big as an elk. If she gets a shot, I hope she proves me wrong. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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hopleyyeaton
Junior Member

USA
104 Posts

Posted - October 30 2017 :  11:04:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
10 yo grandson got his first this year too with 20 ga he got for his birthday. Warms better than any trophy of your own!
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Pop Pop
Senior Member

USA
683 Posts

Posted - October 31 2017 :  07:51:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
IMO, the 357 lacks power on an elk. I have know of several who has taken deer with the 357.

My 9 year old grandson has hunted, with his dad, for the past 2 years in South Carolina. I gave him a new 20 ga Mossberg Mdl 500 and a scoped Marlin 30 30 lever action this summer. Told his dad to purchase a 26" brl for the Mossberg. Need to check on that.

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oldmuleskinner
Senior Member

795 Posts

Posted - October 31 2017 :  1:43:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The .357 is far from my first choice for elk, but a clear lung shot should work as well as a broadhead arrow from a bow. When her dad was a youngster, we used to go hunting for coyotes quite often. Using my Ruger 10/22, he killed well over a dozen with one shot each, and not one went over 10 yards from where it was hit. I killed about as many with the same results. We used CCI Stingers and the rules were simple: no shots beyond about 20 yards, the coyote had to be standing, and it had to be a broadside lung shot.

My son is going to have her abide by the same rules. He will have my .44 Marlin along, because there are black bears, cougars, and wolves in the area. I would prefer that she use the .44, but she is pretty recoil sensitive. All of my other rifles are way to heavy for her to hold and shoot. I don't think that she even hits 90 pounds on the scales.

As it turns out, I will be back from my business trip in time to go out with them on Saturday. The weather forecast is for snow. We will probably see elk, but the chances of calling one in close enough for a good shot will be pretty slim. Regardless, it will be a lot of fun.

Each of us is an innkeeper, and we decide if there is room for Jesus.
Neal A. Maxwell
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - November 02 2017 :  08:48:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've shot quite a few deer with .357 handguns (from 4" to 8") and have not been impressed (neither were the deer at first but I did find them all - one ran 400 yards+). Seen a few wild boar shot with it as well, same story.

I did manage to kill two deer with one shot a few years ago with my 6" Python (but the closer one I had already hit in the lungs before, so I guess technically it was 2 deer with 2 shots). And neither one of them died quickly so I had to use a finisher on both of them. So, all in all it wasn't very impressive, just a little bit unusual.

OTOH, by all accounts a .357 from a rifle is an entirely different critter. In the same league as the 30-30 which is not a bad place to be.

A good friend just got one of the 16" Pumas - put a peep sight on it and it shoots really good. I suspect he will be using it during our deer season which starts in a couple of weeks.

Jim H.

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arty
New Member

99 Posts

Posted - November 02 2017 :  5:45:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A 125 gr 357 from a Marlin will give about 2000. The 158 gr loads give more like 1650-1800. This is not quite a 30-30. I wouldn't want something like this for an animal as large as Elk, unless you can be sure that you can get close and take a neck shot.
I am relying on memory for the velocities, and you should take my comment with a pound of salt. I do my hunting in the meat aisle of the local supermarket.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - November 03 2017 :  09:24:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by arty

A 125 gr 357 from a Marlin will give about 2000. The 158 gr loads give more like 1650-1800. This is not quite a 30-30. I wouldn't want something like this for an animal as large as Elk, unless you can be sure that you can get close and take a neck shot.
I am relying on memory for the velocities, and you should take my comment with a pound of salt. I do my hunting in the meat aisle of the local supermarket.



I think it is Buffalo Bore that makes a viable big game carbine load - IIRC it is 180+ grains and goes 2150 from a 20" barrel - it is a big flat point and penetrates like crazy.

I have some Fiochi 158s I need to test in both handguns and carbine but right now I have no idea what they will get. Good looking bullet though - it sort of reminds me of an XTP with a slightly different cavity.

Still, I'm not real confident that is an elk load.

Jim H.

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Edited by - Jim Higginbotham on November 03 2017 09:25:47 AM
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arty
New Member

99 Posts

Posted - November 03 2017 :  1:44:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Buffalo Bore heavy 357 loads seem really hot, and some loads are close to 30-30 energy levels. I was surprised to see this from their website:

#10148; 18.5-inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!

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WR Moore
Senior Member

USA
852 Posts

Posted - November 03 2017 :  7:48:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can believe those velocities from a carbine barrel. Achievable with a different powder selection than you'd use in handguns. They're getting real close to .35 Remington velocities, but the Remington uses a 200 gr bullet.

I do think I'd be looking for bullets heavier than 125 gr. Especially if you're going to be close.

I personally stay away from boutique ammo. I've know a couple who went out of business after losing lawsuits. That said, my chronograph has recently proven to me that certain bullet/cartridge/powder selections can surprise you. What I don't have is pressure data from those loads.

Edited by - WR Moore on November 03 2017 7:50:02 PM
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oldmuleskinner
Senior Member

795 Posts

Posted - November 04 2017 :  01:27:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They didn't see anything today, but she would have used my .44 Marlin with a 240 gr JHP. My son had the .357, just in case she changed her mind. She didn't feel the .357 recoil when she shot her deer, and I doubt that she would hardly notice the .44 either.

Tomorrow is the last day for her elk season. She will get a few chances this winter on coyotes, and then turkeys next spring. She is a really fun girl and a great sport. I am blessed to have her as my granddaughter.

Each of us is an innkeeper, and we decide if there is room for Jesus.
Neal A. Maxwell
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Pop Pop
Senior Member

USA
683 Posts

Posted - November 04 2017 :  07:10:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great times. Brings back memories of yester year for me. Wish he was still here. Hoping for success for her today.

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colt357
Junior Member

187 Posts

Posted - November 05 2017 :  12:46:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Years ago Winchester sold a .357 mag 180 grain Nosler Partition load that they branded as their 180 grain .357 Partition Gold load under their Supreme line. It was deadly on whitetail from a carbine and it expanded nicely and penetrated deeply. However, it has been discontinued now for several years.

More recently Federal was selling a .357 mag loading of a 180 Grain Swift A-Frame. Kind of like an updated and bonded version of the old Nosler partition bullet. The A-Frames are pretty universally viewed as reliable expanders and deep penetrators. I picked up a couple of boxes of them a while back and they seem consistent and very accurate out of my Winchester model 92 but I have not shot anything that bleeds with them yet.

A quick look around the internet shows that even that federal load seems pretty hard to find now. Hopefully it is still being made.

Colt
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - November 05 2017 :  08:15:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ever wonder how many elk and deer were killed with a .44-40 Winchester original blackpowder load.

that was a 200gr conical solid @1200 fps, it wouldn't touch a good .357 out of a carbine.

folks used the .44-40 well into the 20th century on everything including moose and bear, probably couldn't pry it from their cold dead hands
j
from a turn of the century Winchester sales add, note the last one:


..."I have fully tested the late improved Winchester Rifle and take pleasure in stating that it is the best rifle I have ever used. I have killed a number of deer, at distances from one to two hundred yards and in every instance, the bullet passed clean through the body."
..."I killed at a full gallop, at about 100 yards distant, a very large buckwith a splendid set of antlers with the first shot. The bullet struck him in the shoulder, as he ran toward me, and after traversing the entire length of his body, tearing the lights and paunch into atoms in its course, it passed out behind through the thickest part of the ham."
..."The killing qualities, at large game, is all that could be desired, to the wonder and admiration of the guides and sportsmen who saw its working during my visit to the Adirondack woods last fall."
..."I can say for one, that I think the Winchester Model of 1873 is the best firearm now in use for hunting and sporting; they give the best satisfaction to every one that has used them here. James Gary and C.S. Martin have killed 17 bears and 100 deer since the first of September with Model 1873.
..."For a sporting rifle, I think the Winchester Rifle is excelled by none. I have killed antelope, deer, and elk, with my gun, at from 200 to 400 yards. I would not exchange it for any other rifle."


"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on November 05 2017 08:17:05 AM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4365 Posts

Posted - November 05 2017 :  09:26:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Very interesting, definitely puts things in perspective.

Buffalo Boreís 180gr Outdoorsman load in .357 Magnum leaves the barrel of an 18Ē Marlin carbine at 1850 fps.

Their 200gr .44 Mag ĎAnti-personnelí load clocks at 1200 fps from a 4Ē S&W Mountain Gunó giving the exact same ballistic performance as the .44-40 rifle load GW talks about, that hunters were raving about at the time for its ability to kill elk out to 400 yds!

Timesó and standardsó have definitely changed!

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on November 05 2017 09:32:30 AM
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - November 05 2017 :  09:43:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the oldtimers were good hunters, but notoriously poor judges of distance

you read Teddy Roosevelt's own books they lobbed rifle rounds at ridiculously long ranges into large deer until they got a hit, great wasters of game by today's standard.

still, those old slow blackpowder guns stacked up impressive piles of venison

folks using blackpowder .44-40 today still knock down big deer out to a hundred yards or so, with little meat damaged

unless deer and elk have gotten tougher in the last hundred years.....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4365 Posts

Posted - November 05 2017 :  10:12:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Itís climate change, clearly itís making the critters tougher, and the people softer... and dumber...

Present company excepted, of course!

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on November 05 2017 10:34:30 AM
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5046 Posts

Posted - November 05 2017 :  3:40:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some idiots in the western side of the state, some years ago, got a one-shot kill on an escaped buffalo--young bull, as I recall--with a .243, dunno what brand/design bullet, but they had been on a deer hunting trip. So, by that one example, apparently .243 is a viable buffalo hunting round.

Oh, and they followed the thing around for a couple hours, waiting for it to fall down; something about didn't want to use up their ammo or put a bunch of holes in the hide or wanted 'bragging rights' about killing a buffalo with one shot from a .243 or something. Like I said, idiots. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - November 05 2017 :  6:02:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Some idiots in the western side of the state, some years ago, got a one-shot kill on an escaped buffalo--young bull, as I recall--with a .243, dunno what brand/design bullet, but they had been on a deer hunting trip. So, by that one example, apparently .243 is a viable buffalo hunting round.

Oh, and they followed the thing around for a couple hours, waiting for it to fall down; something about didn't want to use up their ammo or put a bunch of holes in the hide or wanted 'bragging rights' about killing a buffalo with one shot from a .243 or something. Like I said, idiots. Ace



There was an interesting article way back when, perhaps by Jack Lott? Turns out that by the late 1930s one of the national parks, I think maybe Custer in SD, had more buffalo than the browse would carry over the winter.

Some govt. hunters came in and decided to cull them with 30-06 and .300 H&H (.300 Win mag had not been invented). It turned out that anywhere between 5 and 9 hits were required and they were mostly culling females and calves. JD Jones wrote of shooting a bull with a .270 Winchester - it took 5 hits.

A maintenance worker there told them it was shameful to shoot these critters like that. He went home and got his old buffalo gun, a Sharps which I think may have been a 45-90 or 45-110 - it wasn't the "big 50".

He shot the critters and they went down with one hit each - I am told that it is actually on film and in the 1940 movie "Buffalo Bill" starring Joel McRae. In any case the scene is obviously real and even running buffalo collapse right there on the spot (you can see the dust on the hill behind some after the exit).

Jim H.

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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
4989 Posts

Posted - November 05 2017 :  7:12:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I feel like I'm reading Elmer Keith all over again.

Jeff

jle3030
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - November 06 2017 :  08:34:04 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
GW I think it was TR that said: "I am not a particularly good shot but I shoot often."

Jim

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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - November 06 2017 :  08:52:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
TR was also blind as a bat since birth!

we killed an old bison bull on my uncles place back in the day, he had 5 he was cross breeding with cattle

one round of 30-06 AP straight on into he skull was all it took. they dug the bullet out his kneck when the butchered it

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4365 Posts

Posted - November 06 2017 :  11:36:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Some idiots in the western side of the state, some years ago, got a one-shot kill on an escaped buffalo--young bull, as I recall--with a .243, dunno what brand/design bullet, but they had been on a deer hunting trip. So, by that one example, apparently .243 is a viable buffalo hunting round.

Oh, and they followed the thing around for a couple hours, waiting for it to fall down; something about didn't want to use up their ammo or put a bunch of holes in the hide or wanted 'bragging rights' about killing a buffalo with one shot from a .243 or something. Like I said, idiots. Ace



There was an interesting article way back when, perhaps by Jack Lott? Turns out that by the late 1930s one of the national parks, I think maybe Custer in SD, had more buffalo than the browse would carry over the winter.

Some govt. hunters came in and decided to cull them with 30-06 and .300 H&H (.300 Win mag had not been invented). It turned out that anywhere between 5 and 9 hits were required and they were mostly culling females and calves. JD Jones wrote of shooting a bull with a .270 Winchester - it took 5 hits.

A maintenance worker there told them it was shameful to shoot these critters like that. He went home and got his old buffalo gun, a Sharps which I think may have been a 45-90 or 45-110 - it wasn't the "big 50".

He shot the critters and they went down with one hit each - I am told that it is actually on film and in the 1940 movie "Buffalo Bill" starring Joel McRae. In any case the scene is obviously real and even running buffalo collapse right there on the spot (you can see the dust on the hill behind some after the exit).

Jim H.


I just bought a JM Marlin 1895 .45-70 'Guide Gun', no need for it in my present situation, but it was in mint condition, the price was right and I couldn't resist. I'm unlikely to encounter a buffalo or grizz where I live, but just in case...


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on November 06 2017 11:39:01 AM
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