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 pushing glock left
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  09:00:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
anyone else hitting low left with their Glocks?

slow deliberate from a rest mine are centered, pick up the pace off hand and all shots are left and low

Rich Grassi wrote about it on The Tacticla Wire, warns that you'll transfer the problem to other platforms.

might be an issue with the hinged trigger and leverage.

I think it's a combinition of grip and trigger control, and I am starting to see it with other platforms, developing a bad habit.....

driving me nuttier than usual

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2937 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  09:04:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I had that problem with Glocks, and just Glocks, until I shifted my trigger finger position and pulled the trigger with the center of the trigger finger pad. It seemed to give me a straight back pull that cured the low left 'trigger jerk'.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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gauchobill
Advanced Member

1036 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  09:32:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With some different guns I don't always get the left hand well against the left side of the grip. When I fail to do this I invariably shoot left. Seems to depend on the fit against my left, supporting hand.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  09:47:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I thought that was one of their features

90% of the folks I teach shoot Glocks left when they speed up. The other 10% shoot them right since they are left handed

That may be a little bit exaggerated but it really is common.

Sometimes it is the first segment of the trigger finger, when it flexes it presses against the frame. Sometimes it is just over-travel when the trigger slams into the frame. Sometimes it is short fingers that are stretching to reach the trigger and end up not quite long enough and are pressing sideways.

Jim

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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  09:48:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
BTW, when I run into those that shoot Glocks to the right (left handed folks) I am always reminded of Evan:

"All people are born left handed and convert to right after they commit their first sin."

Jim, chiefest of sinners

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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  09:59:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

I thought that was one of their features

90% of the folks I teach shoot Glocks left when they speed up. The other 10% shoot them right since they are left handed

That may be a little bit exaggerated but it really is common.

Sometimes it is the first segment of the trigger finger, when it flexes it presses against the frame. Sometimes it is just over-travel when the trigger slams into the frame. Sometimes it is short fingers that are stretching to reach the trigger and end up not quite long enough and are pressing sideways.

Jim



I'm seeing a lot of over travel in the Glock, lighter grip seems to help


"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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rev.
Senior Member

946 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  4:31:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am left handed and have been plagued by shooting low/right when speeding up my rate of fire with my G26 and G42 and with my Ruger LC9. I've even had it happen shooting rather slow. I discovered that I was pushing my trigger finger both to the rear and to the side when taking a shot, it drove me to distraction! Then I started to very consciously move my finger straight back using the pad of my finger. I no longer have that problem, but I still pay close attention to pulling the trigger straight back with no sideways push.
I wish you well.
rev.
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Malcolm
Advanced Member

USA
4008 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  7:33:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I had to readjust my grip for my Glocks. Lightened up on the bottom of the "ice cream cone", and my hits moved back to the right and stayed centered even with my style of rapid fire.(probably slow for some of you high-speed, low drag gents.) I'm still high-drag, low speed....

"The measure of a man's character, is how he treats someone who can do nothing for him." (unknown)
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Uncle Mike
Advanced Member

USA
1604 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  10:00:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi gw, usually low left for me is that I'm tightening my grip. I'm right handed. Usually it's me not the gun, regards, Mike

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage"...Thucyides

"War is sweet to those who do not know it."...Erasmus
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
4989 Posts

Posted - October 24 2017 :  05:51:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've come to suspect the safety lever in the midline of the trigger may contribute to uneven finger pressure tending to push the gun left. Finding and concentrating on a centered finger position and a straight back pull has worked for me. It also helps with the heavier break and sudden overtravel in the NY1 triggers.

In rapid fire I've also found it helps to roll in a little extra leftward pressure with the support hand wrist.

Jeff

jle3030

Edited by - jle3030 on October 24 2017 05:55:28 AM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - October 24 2017 :  08:56:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

I thought that was one of their features

90% of the folks I teach shoot Glocks left when they speed up. The other 10% shoot them right since they are left handed

That may be a little bit exaggerated but it really is common.

Sometimes it is the first segment of the trigger finger, when it flexes it presses against the frame. Sometimes it is just over-travel when the trigger slams into the frame. Sometimes it is short fingers that are stretching to reach the trigger and end up not quite long enough and are pressing sideways.

Jim



I'm seeing a lot of over travel in the Glock, lighter grip seems to help





Yes Sir. Typically the thing I try to get folks to do first is tighten up on their support hand grip.

Same thing with an M9 BTW - it isn't only Glocks.

Jim

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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - October 24 2017 :  11:20:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
it's remarkable how many folks have the issue with Glocks, seems like most of those being 9mm

other folks like Rich Grassi report a problem for him with 9mm 1911 lightweights

myself I have no problem with 1911s pulling left but my guns are all .45 and I just don't run as fast with one, but I am building the problem with the M&P 9mm as I pick up the pace

I'm beginning to think, for me anyway, I'm running faster than I can shoot with the 9mm

the low part is milking the grip, the left shift is trigger slap

Everyone is having a slightly different problem with a slightly different fix

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
4989 Posts

Posted - October 24 2017 :  4:36:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I figured out the G19 years ago. Not to say I don't have occasional lapses, but when it happens at least I know what I'm doing wrong. The G43 has been way more difficult for me to learn. I thought I never would find the right trigger finger placement for the little thing. I was getting vertical stringing from 7:00 to 11:00 in the 8-9 ring. Better now, except for the occasional flier. I still have more confidence in the .38 snubbies.

Jeff

jle3030
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - October 25 2017 :  09:04:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know several folks I respect that have latched onto the little 9mms, mostly Shields and G43s. I've shot some and they seem to be OK but I just have not warmed up to them - I still with my J-frames and my Colt Cobras.

But, everyone has to work out their own salvation and whatever they choose they will get no flak from me.

Jim

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Steve in Michigan
Junior Member

USA
153 Posts

Posted - October 25 2017 :  09:22:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree about being able to still shoot a wheelie better than a small auto. My 642 with Crimson Trace and M15 Smith 2" are much easier to shoot for me than my LC9. The LC9 is very picky to shoot and you can not only go low and left, but all over the target if you are not really concentrating. I guess the double-action revolver just runs so that the sights seem to be on target when the hammer falls and seems like a natural movement. I think the lack of slide action also contributes to better accuracy.
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - October 25 2017 :  10:18:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

I know several folks I respect that have latched onto the little 9mms, mostly Shields and G43s. I've shot some and they seem to be OK but I just have not warmed up to them - I still with my J-frames and my Colt Cobras.

But, everyone has to work out their own salvation and whatever they choose they will get no flak from me.

Jim



I've started pushing the Shield low left, that's what sort of drove me over the edge

I'm talking split times under .2 sec per, so maybe the fix is to throw my timer away.

I got an M&P 22 that fills the bill as a trainer, I can run that as fast as it will go, so much of my problem is recoil control and grip.

I shoot da revolvers and da only automatics better but also a little slower

the question starts to be "how fast is too fast" and can you really control that cadence under real stress.

think I'll smash my timer and carry a rifle.....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on October 25 2017 10:20:51 AM
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
4989 Posts

Posted - October 25 2017 :  11:30:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fast split times are an admirable demonstration of advanced skill and are essential in the competition milieu. But have they ever been shown to be relevant on the street? Or are they actually counter productive for most shooters?

The best advice I ever received was from a serious three gun competitor / police shooting instructor. "The hand is quicker than the eye. Don't shoot faster than you can see". The best object lesson that day was when my son-in-law was fast, but all over the target. The instructor told him to "slow way down, see your sights, and guarantee the shot". That immediately solved the problem. S-I-L's groups centered and his split times went from O.2 to 0.3 seconds. In raw terms a 0.1 second increase may seem insignificant, but it does represent a 50% increase in shot recovery/reorientation time.

Digression: Sgt Tim Friar, Greenfield Ohio PD, gone before his time from cancer, was known to give heartburn to other police firearms instructors. At one mandatory in service training session the task was to pie your way through a live fire house with the usual shoot, no shoot, and hostage targets. Feeling bored, Tim decided to run it like an IPSC stage. At the door, he shouted for all innocent parties to get on the ground. Then he ran through the house, scoring 100% head shots on all the BG targets. The instructors were not amused, but none of them was willing to try duplicating the feat.

Jeff

jle3030
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2937 Posts

Posted - October 25 2017 :  1:13:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

Fast split times are an admirable demonstration of advanced skill and are essential in the competition milieu. But have they ever been shown to be relevant on the street? Or are they actually counter productive for most shooters?

The best advice I ever received was from a serious three gun competitor / police shooting instructor. "The hand is quicker than the eye. Don't shoot faster than you can see". The best object lesson that day was when my son-in-law was fast, but all over the target. The instructor told him to "slow way down, see your sights, and guarantee the shot". That immediately solved the problem. S-I-L's groups centered and his split times went from O.2 to 0.3 seconds. In raw terms a 0.1 second increase may seem insignificant, but it does represent a 50% increase in shot recovery/reorientation time.

Digression: Sgt Tim Friar, Greenfield Ohio PD, gone before his time from cancer, was known to give heartburn to other police firearms instructors. At one mandatory in service training session the task was to pie your way through a live fire house with the usual shoot, no shoot, and hostage targets. Feeling bored, Tim decided to run it like an IPSC stage. At the door, he shouted for all innocent parties to get on the ground. Then he ran through the house, scoring 100% head shots on all the BG targets. The instructors were not amused, but none of them was willing to try duplicating the feat.

Jeff



A BIG +1! You can shoot faster than you can see (or think), with the inevitable results on the target. This obviously applies to Real Life (only hits count)... but it also applies in competition.

If you can make a .2 second split on an IDPA or ICORE target... and it happens to be outside the 0 or A Zone... your .2 split just turned into a .80 negative on your score... at least if you were fortunate enough to hit the -1 or B Zone. Get outside those and that "impressive split time" cost you several seconds. IPSC is a bit more forgiving, but the winners still shoot 90+% A Zone hits.

Taking an extra .25 sec on the shot pays off in the Real World, and on the competition range. The smarter shooters know that. The "spray &pray"neophytes that want to impress folks with their .2 sec splits haven't quite figured that out. But they may get the message after looking at enough of their "less than satisfactory" scores.

Back in the old days when coppers carried revolvers (and this applies today in competition) there were fewer missed shots. They didn't have 15 round mags to use as a crutch, so they used their sights instead[;).

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - October 25 2017 :  3:28:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
shooting ability is around 10% of the solution in my world

and I'm not interested in scores or impressing people

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2937 Posts

Posted - October 25 2017 :  4:36:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

shooting ability is around 10% of the solution in my world

and I'm not interested in scores or impressing people



If split times, as you previously mentioned, under .2 seconds are causing problems -- then why not do .40 splits and actually hit something? And, why even attempt to make .2 split times?

Wouldn't it be better to just take that -- literal---extra "blink of the eye" and make a good hit? If shooting ability is only 10% of your solution, why not do it well, so that you can worry about the other 90%?

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - October 25 2017 :  5:52:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
who says I'm not hitting something.....

the shot timer is a training tool, not a tactic.

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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