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exfed2002
Advanced Member

1220 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  1:27:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill


I’m sure at some point someone must have been shot with these... be interesting to hear those stories....





Well, as Jeff Cooper used to say in substance, folks used to get mad when shot with these small calibers........

"The answer is there is no answer."
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wolfgang2000
Advanced Member

USA
3742 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  4:02:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Evan

Guys, please! I figured out the concept of dressing around the gun after almost getting my head blow off with a .38 snub.

The smallest gun I carry is a .357 snub because it is a superb "One Foot In The Grave Gun". I can jam the snub against the body of the monster and empty it without worrying about a stoppage.

My two primary carry guns are a Glock 22 and Glock 27. If you think that is too radical and your baby gun will be fine, remember a baby will crap on you without any warning!



Evan I agree with you. BI.ve been doing the same thing since the 80's. You and I Et Al, have the privilege O having a retired LEO commission that gives us more leeway than the non LEO.

I know of many conditions where a deep conceal and a baby pistol is the only way they could have a gun on them at all.

Dressing around the gun is the best, but some times a persoan just has to do what they have got to do.


“The key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a tactical philosophy.” Evan Marshall
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2937 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  4:53:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

I bought a box of Buffalo Bore’s 100-gr hardcast flatnose +P .380s, haven’t had a chance to see how (or whether) the Seecamp likes them.

Tim Sundles (BB’s owner) makes the case on his website that these are the most effective sort of bullet to launch from your mouse gun, because they allow maximum penetration.





Only if they function reliably. If they don't, you have a very small and ineffectual club.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2937 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  4:59:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now days, after my experience with the Tomcat... if I need something "very discreet"... I'll find a way to carry a .38 hammerless snub.

I'm done with "baby semi-autos". Ya'll do what you want. I've made my choice.


Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Evan
Administrator

34114 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  5:00:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you never buy one, you'll never be tempted to carry it. The smallest caliber hand gun in the Marshall house hold is a .357 Magnum.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4364 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  6:26:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

I bought a box of Buffalo Bore’s 100-gr hardcast flatnose +P .380s, haven’t had a chance to see how (or whether) the Seecamp likes them.

Tim Sundles (BB’s owner) makes the case on his website that these are the most effective sort of bullet to launch from your mouse gun, because they allow maximum penetration.





Only if they function reliably. If they don't, you have a very small and ineffectual club.


quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

Now days, after my experience with the Tomcat... if I need something "very discreet"... I'll find a way to carry a .38 hammerless snub.

I'm done with "baby semi-autos". Ya'll do what you want. I've made my choice.




I agree with you and Evan a snubbie is the best choice for a ‘get-off-me’ gun.

It seems to me that the *tiniest* semi-autos like the Baby Browning and Seecamp fill a different niche: since they’re concealable in a way that no .38 or .357 snubbie is. But they’re definitely a compromise.

I carry a .357 snubbie every day, it lives in my bathrobe pocket. I can’t remember the last time I carried the Seecamp. But it’s there if I ‘need’ it.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on October 21 2017 6:40:30 PM
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5045 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  8:17:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess there's always a chance a window could be left open, and papers could blow off the desk..... Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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BatteryOaksBilly
Junior Member

USA
125 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  10:44:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have only been to 2 Coroner's Inquests in my 70 years. Both concerned people I knew. The 2 "shootees" were big young hardsides both well over 6 feet and 225 pounds. Both aggressors were giants compared to the men they attacked. These 2 shootings were about a year apart in the town I grew up in. Both were one shot kills with a .25 acp. I understand these kind of stories are only anecdotal in the grand scheme of things BUT I was there and they have stuck with me for over half a century. No.....I do not carry a .25 for a primary, but I have seen what they can do when lives are on the line. Both men fell dead immediately.

Billy Bruton..Carry every step..Shoot every day!
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bandaidman
Advanced Member

USA
1309 Posts

Posted - October 22 2017 :  06:47:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a good friend who is a school teacher who is determined to get a Browning 380 their 1911 version because of the way it feels and that it carries more rounds than a a j frames 5 he feels he can conceal it better than a full size or a compact 9mm. I have sent him here to try and get some wisdom, but I'm not sure if it's helping. Since he's a teacher his budget for guns isn't great but I keep trying to get him to see the wisdom of carrying something that would stop someone.

“If for a while the harder you try, the harder it gets, take heart. So it has been with the best people who ever lived.
Jeffery Holland
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Badge
Advanced Member

USA
1648 Posts

Posted - October 22 2017 :  08:12:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The OCB undercover Set.s were issued Baugher, .25 Semi Auto's by the JOB as they could be hidden virtually anywhere and in the day's of the " Cocaine Cowboy's ", that they dealt with they HAD to be armed with something. It wouldn't be my first choice but better than nothing. Chris, I respect your opinion and feelings as I never had that happen with my two Tomcats but for a third and certainly not a stand alone it works for me. Thats the beauty of the firearms world. We can carry what we please when we please and whichever caliber or configuration. Life is good.

MSS
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
4989 Posts

Posted - October 22 2017 :  08:22:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Elmer Keith made reference to the hard men who fell victims to little "sneaky guns", if IIRC correctly the term he used. I'm not a big fan of mouseguns - until they are the only thing that circumstances will allow. Then I like them just fine...

Jeff

jle3030
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4364 Posts

Posted - October 22 2017 :  08:52:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

I guess there's always a chance a window could be left open, and papers could blow off the desk..... Ace




Man, I hate it when that happens! I’ve been thinking I’d have to replace the window glass... and you know what a PITA that is...

Thanks for the tip!

PS— I’m guessing that here, as in all gun related matters, placement is probably critical...?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on October 22 2017 09:40:25 AM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4364 Posts

Posted - October 22 2017 :  09:47:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

Elmer Keith made reference to the hard men who fell victims to little "sneaky guns", if IIRC correctly the term he used. I'm not a big fan of mouseguns - until they are the only thing that circumstances will allow. Then I like them just fine...

Jeff


Speaking of sneaky, I recently read an analysis of concealed-carry self-defense shootings, that looked at the specific circumstances of each one, what ‘worked’ (for the good guys) and what didn’t— and one of the commonalities of the successful shootings was that the good guy waited to draw his gun until the bad guy wasn’t looking.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on October 22 2017 09:49:00 AM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  09:03:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill;

Along those lines, i watched a video of a robber who held his gun up beside his head pointing up (we call that a "Half Sabrina") and was herding the customers in the store to the back ... smart folks know what follows.

One of the customers was an off duty cop and when the robber turned so that the gun blocked his vision the the cop drew his concealed auto (it was not a tiny gun but my guess was a 9mm) and fired one round. Must have been a good on the guy fell down instantly and apparently died.

Jim

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  09:15:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by exfed2002

quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill


I’m sure at some point someone must have been shot with these... be interesting to hear those stories....





Well, as Jeff Cooper used to say in substance, folks used to get mad when shot with these small calibers........



I think the way it went was that when he was working with a clandestine outfit (I think this was the CIA) he was often asked about little .25 autos and his advice was

Well if you must, carry it. But don't load it. If you load it you might shoot at someone and if you shoot at someone you might hit them and if they notice they have been shot they might get mad an hurt you.

I never asked him but I sort of suspected it was a little tongue in cheek.


OTOH, my first job (I was in high school) was at a gas station which was one of 4 owned by a Major on the Louisville PD. Cool guy. He had a baby browning he took off a guy who he told me had shot him with the gun 6 times but his heavy coat had absorbed most of the velocity and none of the bullets penetrated the skin though they did leave red marks.

He did get mad, beat the guy to a pulp and kept the gun as a souvenir.

At least that is what he told me, no idea if it was true.

He had me wash his car once (a plain white Dodge Coronet that had a 440 "six pack" in it - my only complaint was it was an automatic not a 4 speed) in the trunk was a Winchester Model 12 riot gun and a bandolier of ammo and a Thompson in a hard case - I resisted the urge to fondle the gun. But I did ask him what it was and he opened the case to show me which is how I knew.

I knew of course what a Thompson was (in fact had shot one that belonged to a guy who owned the gun shop I frequented) but at that point I had never seen the hard case for one. He had an L-drum and the one I had shot had that as well.

Jim




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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  09:54:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know a guy who works undercover for the Sherriffs Office.

he told me at one time he carried one of those mini revolvers in .22 magnum.

one afternoon he was sitting on a back deck with a local drug dealer when suddenly the drug runner pointed a .45 automatic at him.

he jumped over the side of the deck and ran away

he found a bigger hideout to carry the next day......

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5045 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  09:56:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Somebody with a warped sense of humor might think that if you're going to carry a 'mini pocket pistol', you might otta carry 'many mini pocket pistols'. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.

Edited by - Ace on October 23 2017 09:57:08 AM
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arty
New Member

99 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  10:32:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When I was a teenager, a friend of mine was shot with a 22 by a mugger. He didn't know he was shot until another friend told him he had blood on his shirt. The bullet didn't penetrate his ribs. BTW, he beat up the kids trying to steal his bicycle.
This is a first hand account. I saw the kid and was there when he fainted after seeing the blood. This must have been 15 minutes after the shooting.
I knew a college student who did an internship at a battered women's support group. One of the women there was shot in the forehead by her husband. This convinced her that he didn't love her. She didn't know she had been shot until she saw the blood running down. The bullet didn't penetrate her skull.
It is hard to convince someone that he has been shot. Some people take a lot of convincing.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2937 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  10:48:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My buddy Mas Ayoob has a very concise saying -- "Friends don't let friends carry Mouse Guns."

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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heavyweight
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  11:29:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I carry one of those "mouse guns" in the summer when I'm scantily clad. I wear a NAA mini revolver when I'm mowing the yard. It hangs on the elastic waistband of my shorts. I carry a PSA-25 as a back up to my LCP II when on the motorcycle. Mouse guns do have their place.
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5045 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  11:54:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yep, on top of that stack of papers on the desk.

If I ever get an office job, I'll put some kind of baby gun on the desk, loaded with a primer-only cartridge. Sooner or later somebody would pick it up and pull the trigger.... Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2937 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  12:46:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by heavyweight

I carry one of those "mouse guns" in the summer when I'm scantily clad. I wear a NAA mini revolver when I'm mowing the yard. It hangs on the elastic waistband of my shorts. I carry a PSA-25 as a back up to my LCP II when on the motorcycle. Mouse guns do have their place.



Hopefully you'll never have to use any of them to defend your life. If you do, and survive, your opinion of Mouse Guns might change.

Just "having a gun" is often not enough. Having a "serious gun" may not be enough, but it does give one a better chance of going home to supper

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  3:16:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
other things to carry a pistol for, I clipped a 3 foot rattle snake with a Beretta .25 getting into my truck one night.

took it's head right off, amazed myself......

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2937 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  3:27:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

other things to carry a pistol for, I clipped a 3 foot rattle snake with a Beretta .25 getting into my truck one night.

took it's head right off, amazed myself......



Shot a number of rattlesnakes, cottonmouths, copper heads, and coral snakes myself. None were an immediate self-defense concern, since I saw them first and stayed outside their striking range, and they weren't bent on attacking me. A .22 (or even a long crow bar) would have done the job.

Thugs are different, and I'd prefer a bit stronger 'medicine' that a .22, .25, or crowbar. That's why they make "real' guns&calibers.

If thugs are a possible issue, folks might want to consider one of them. If you see the snake first you can stay outside it's striking range. Thugs tend to change their 'striking range' rapidly, and if you're in their sights, it's hard to back pedal fast enough.

Just a thought

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.

Edited by - Chris Christian on October 23 2017 3:34:12 PM
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - October 23 2017 :  3:59:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
snake wasn't hurtin anybody, he was just to close too the truck

people carry what they want

I had a close friend with severe Parkinson's, he lived alone. one night some punks got in, pulled him out of his wheelchair, and robbed him.

he lay on the floor a couple days until a Sherriff Deputy came to check on him, got him to the hospital.

when he got out he loaded up a pair of tip barrel .25s, he could load it without working the slide and could handle the recoil of the .25.

he sat in his wheel chair with one in each hand at night in case they came back

lucky for them they moved on....

I try not judge what other people do

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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