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Uncle Mike
Advanced Member

USA
1604 Posts

Posted - October 18 2017 :  11:45:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi, a friend was asking about a small back up pistol as a second or emergency carry. He mentioned the NAA or the Seecamp in 32 or 380. I don't know much about these but I like the Beretta Tom Cat. Any insight or opinions. He wants something small that could fit in a leather cuff case or similar pouch, regards, Mike

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage"...Thucyides

"War is sweet to those who do not know it."...Erasmus

Arvinator
Advanced Member

USA
5252 Posts

Posted - October 19 2017 :  06:46:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've carried a KelTec P-32 as a "3rd gun" and still do at times. Same for my Glock .380

Handcuff case carry? I've seen a few but preferred a pocket holster myself.

Be honest, fair, and always prepared...
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4375 Posts

Posted - October 19 2017 :  06:46:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I believe the Seecamps are the smallest (though not the lightest) guns in their respective calibers: true pocket pistols. On the rare occasions when I carry it, I carry mine in a Bear Creek Holsters ‘wallet’ holster that’s also convertible to side-pocket carry.

I’ve owned both calibers, they’re very solidly made. If I do my part, I can easily achieve 2” 5-shot groups at 25 yds.

Just kidding!

My practice has all been at very short distances. I like them a lot for what they are: a very concealable get-off-me gun, meant to be point-shot rather than aimed. Might not be the best choice for someone with big hands.

I currently have the .380 version, it’s ‘snappy’ to shoot, but not overly so. Seecamp recommends only using certain rounds in them, but mine does fine with DPX, even though it’s not among the recommended rounds.

If your friend gets one, make sure he/she knows not to dry-fire it with the magazine out, that can damage it.

One can make the argument that most .380s have become ‘obsolete’, in the sense that you can find a ‘micro-9’ of the same size. Not so for the Seecamp, it’s considerably smaller than any 9 I’m aware of. Perfect for those occassions when only the tiniest of guns will work.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on October 19 2017 07:54:52 AM
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Evan
Administrator

34116 Posts

Posted - October 19 2017 :  07:53:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don't. These little guns will seduce into carrying them alone. An extremely bad idea

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2938 Posts

Posted - October 19 2017 :  09:20:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Evan

Don't. These little guns will seduce into carrying them alone. An extremely bad idea



+1!

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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gw
Advanced Member

3984 Posts

Posted - October 19 2017 :  09:38:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Mike

Hi, a friend was asking about a small back up pistol as a second or emergency carry. He mentioned the NAA or the Seecamp in 32 or 380. I don't know much about these but I like the Beretta Tom Cat. Any insight or opinions. He wants something small that could fit in a leather cuff case or similar pouch, regards, Mike



the Tom Cats had an issue with cracked frames, the INOX frame is thicker in that area, if I bought another I'd go there.

at one time Beretta was charging folks $175 to replace their cracked frame....

as it is I sold the Tom Cat I had and bought a LCP, if you shop around you can get the Ruger for less than half the Berreta, it's a .380, and is a bit smaller.( lighter & thinner)

the LCP is also locked breech vs blowback and it has an extractor, Tom Cat needs a time out to clear a malfunction.

not really knocking Beretta either, I had a Glock G26 frame crack in exactly the same place (change those RSAs! ), but Glock was only charging me $150 to replace it....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on October 19 2017 09:51:20 AM
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5049 Posts

Posted - October 19 2017 :  11:22:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm with Evan and Chris. BUT if one simply MUST carry a baby gun, I'd suggest not going smaller than .380---and find one of the few good loads that brings it up to almost .38Spl performance. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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Badge
Advanced Member

USA
1648 Posts

Posted - October 19 2017 :  12:15:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I use a Tomcat as a third weapon if the need arrises. I would never carry it as a stand alone weapon. They have their place and they are better than a harsh word or sharp stick in the eye.

MSS
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - October 19 2017 :  12:33:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some of us remember, with fondness, Evan's "Nuclear Chihuahua" - it might not pack a lot of punch but it's bark was ferocious!

Still, not a primary handgun candidate for the discriminating gun toter.

I did not actually know this guy but I did end up communicating with him. One of the first permit holders in our state to shoot someone - he interrupted a bank robbery - at least the robbers after they had committed the robbery and he ran into them on the sidewalk.

He shot one in the throat with one of those little .22 RCAC single actions - fortunately, they just ran faster and eventually the wounded one had to seek medical help and they were caught.

He told me that was not his normal carry gun but he didn't want to wear it into the bank - his normal carry gun was a 1911.

I commented that he probably really wished he had had it with him and his words were "never again, will I get caught under armed".

We each have to work out our own salvation - but second chances are not guaranteed.

Jim


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Uncle Mike
Advanced Member

USA
1604 Posts

Posted - October 19 2017 :  1:39:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi, thanks for the warnings and concerns. He is not trying to replace his weapon. I let him watch "Flame and Citron" where "Citron" escapes using a baby Browning; he had hid in his boot. It got the wheels turning. He wants a back up to his back up. This may or may not happen since it's all conversation now. I asked here because I know nothing about this pistols. When he told me Seecamp, I thought he meant the custom double action 1911. I carry a Colt XSE and my back up is a Commander and my back up to that is a Defender. My final back up is a automatic Applegate folder. I guess we get into teeth and then running away, LOL, regards, Mike

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage"...Thucyides

"War is sweet to those who do not know it."...Erasmus
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2938 Posts

Posted - October 19 2017 :  2:17:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Badge

I use a Tomcat as a third weapon if the need arrises. I would never carry it as a stand alone weapon. They have their place and they are better than a harsh word or sharp stick in the eye.



I lost faith in the Tomcat. The owner's manual specifically states that dry firing the gun can break the firing pin. I somehow missed that warning and did dry fire it.

There was an situation where I needed a 'very discreet' firearm for a couple of days in "another city". The .32 Tomcat was the best option and had been working fine. I tested it before I left on that trip. I carried it for three days.

When I got back home I decided to empty the magazine through 'fam fire". Click!

The firing pin had 'broken' between the last round I fired to test the gun prior to that "trip", and the time I tucked it into my pocket. Bottom line -- I carried a non-functional gun... as my only gun... for three days. And I had no way to know it! That could have be a case of fatal confidence!

That Tomcat is gone, and I'll pass on other Tomcats.


Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.

Edited by - Chris Christian on October 19 2017 2:20:46 PM
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heavyweight
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - October 19 2017 :  3:02:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm partial to my LCR in .38 and LCP II.
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JD
Junior Member

USA
102 Posts

Posted - October 19 2017 :  4:11:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I really like my Ruger LCP Custom. Very small and less than 10 oz. Usable sights, acceptable trigger, reliable, and since it is a locked breech it's not painful to shoot like some blowback pistols...

There are times when anything larger can't be carried (no guns allowed at work...), but the LCP in its' pocket holster can be discreetly slipped into a pants pocket and is un-noticeable. I had a Seecamp for many years, and while small, they are all steel and heavy for their size, plus no sights at all and limited choices for ammo.

While a pocket gun is no replacement for my Sig 228 or glock 26, it sure beats having nothing at all!!!!!!!!!!!

JD
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silverback
New Member

USA
79 Posts

Posted - October 19 2017 :  8:40:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My third gun has been a KelTec P-32 for the last eight or so years rides on my ankle with a j in the pocket and Kahr K40 as primary.
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oldmuleskinner
Senior Member

795 Posts

Posted - October 20 2017 :  01:04:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If price is a concern, I would grab a KelTec P-3AT. I rarely carry mine, and never as my primary. It is small enough to hide in a large cell phone case on my belt, or in a back pocket.

I have never had a problem with the small KT's. I have them in .380 and .32, and they have never failed to go bang.

My wife often carries her KT P-3AT in a Remora hoster, IWB. I wish she would carry her J-frame more often, but the .380 is better than nothing.

Each of us is an innkeeper, and we decide if there is room for Jesus.
Neal A. Maxwell
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wolfgang2000
Advanced Member

USA
3742 Posts

Posted - October 20 2017 :  4:23:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I believe Seecamp was the first "baby" handguns, with American Arms following up. You also had the OMC (later they were AMT IIRC) with their small 380. The problem with all of the "baby" semi auto's is that the worked using the blow back, which made them heavy.

I believe Kel-Tec was the first to come out with a locking breach baby gun. That was their 32. I carried one as a BUG for years. Later they came out with a 380 version. Soon there after both Ruger and Tarsus jumped on the band wagon.

My current BUG is a Diamond Back DB9. It looks like a Glock slide put on a Kel-Tec lower. The funny looking grip gives you a good purchase making it very easy to shoot. The trigger pull is probably in the 5 to 6# range.

There are 2 things I don't like about the DB9. 1 there in no slide lock back. 2 There isn't a Glock style safety trigger.


“The key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a tactical philosophy.” Evan Marshall
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4375 Posts

Posted - October 20 2017 :  6:01:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, the main ‘virtue’ that sets the Seecamp apart— aside from it’s quality of build and reliability— is it’s tiny-ness: 4-1/4” long by 3-1/4” high, .9” wide in the grip and .725” in the slide: I believe it’s the smallest .380 out there. Truly ‘wallet’-sized.

But, its barrel is only 2”, compared to 2.75” for the KT3AT. And it weighs 13.7 oz loaded compared to 11 oz for the KT.

Like with all small-for-their-caliber guns though, the Seecamp’s weight becomes an asset when you fire it.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on October 20 2017 6:25:07 PM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  07:48:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It may not be the choice for most but historically we need to remember the first handgun to carry the "baby" nickname was the Browning pocket .25, set beside Seecamp it makes the latter look like a hand cannon.

The Walther 7s and 9s were even smaller than the Browning.

Of course it did not have a "delivery like a brick through a plate glass window" like the Seecamp

There was also the sort of odd Bernadelli in .22 Long - you could not get a Long Rifle in the magazine unless you chopped off the end of the bullet.

Don't ask me how I know these things

Jim

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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4375 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  09:34:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

It may not be the choice for most but historically we need to remember the first handgun to carry the "baby" nickname was the Browning pocket .25, set beside Seecamp it makes the latter look like a hand cannon.

The Walther 7s and 9s were even smaller than the Browning.

Of course it did not have a "delivery like a brick through a plate glass window" like the Seecamp

There was also the sort of odd Bernadelli in .22 Long - you could not get a Long Rifle in the magazine unless you chopped off the end of the bullet.

Don't ask me how I know these things

Jim


I’m sure at some point someone must have been shot with these... be interesting to hear those stories....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on October 21 2017 09:47:58 AM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4375 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  09:40:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I bought a box of Buffalo Bore’s 100-gr hardcast flatnose +P .380s, haven’t had a chance to see how (or whether) the Seecamp likes them.

Tim Sundles (BB’s owner) makes the case on his website that these are the most effective sort of bullet to launch from your mouse gun, because they allow maximum penetration.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on October 21 2017 09:46:08 AM
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gw
Advanced Member

3984 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  10:32:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

It may not be the choice for most but historically we need to remember the first handgun to carry the "baby" nickname was the Browning pocket .25, set beside Seecamp it makes the latter look like a hand cannon.

The Walther 7s and 9s were even smaller than the Browning.

Of course it did not have a "delivery like a brick through a plate glass window" like the Seecamp

There was also the sort of odd Bernadelli in .22 Long - you could not get a Long Rifle in the magazine unless you chopped off the end of the bullet.

Don't ask me how I know these things

Jim


I’m sure at some point someone must have been shot with these... be interesting to hear those stories....





those "vest"pocket automatics were carried a lot and shot little, that's why they're fun to collect, you find so many in near new condition.

I guarentee there were a bunch carried as hideouts, just in case

they also come at a time when the idea was just to shoot an "attacker" a little and maybe he'll go away. folks that actually had to fight with one, quickly lobbied for more gun. Res Applegate for example wrote of shooting a machette wielding fanatic 5 times with his .38 S&W. afterwards he petitioned S&W to chamber the i-frame in .38 Special... the .38 J-frame Chief Special was born.

not to start a fight on this stopping power forum,but there is a good arguement that any gun used to fight back will run off most of the criminally weak minded types, they're looking for easy prey.

a vest pocket .25 provided that deterrent for a long time..

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on October 21 2017 10:34:22 AM
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gauchobill
Advanced Member

1039 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  11:42:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The smallest second or backup gun I would carry is my S&W Shield in 9mm. My comfort level requires full-size M&P, Sig 226 or 229, Glock 22 or Beretta PX4 in .40 cal versions.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4375 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  11:52:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

It may not be the choice for most but historically we need to remember the first handgun to carry the "baby" nickname was the Browning pocket .25, set beside Seecamp it makes the latter look like a hand cannon.

The Walther 7s and 9s were even smaller than the Browning.

Of course it did not have a "delivery like a brick through a plate glass window" like the Seecamp

There was also the sort of odd Bernadelli in .22 Long - you could not get a Long Rifle in the magazine unless you chopped off the end of the bullet.

Don't ask me how I know these things

Jim


I’m sure at some point someone must have been shot with these... be interesting to hear those stories....





those "vest"pocket automatics were carried a lot and shot little, that's why they're fun to collect, you find so many in near new condition.

I guarentee there were a bunch carried as hideouts, just in case

they also come at a time when the idea was just to shoot an "attacker" a little and maybe he'll go away. folks that actually had to fight with one, quickly lobbied for more gun. Res Applegate for example wrote of shooting a machette wielding fanatic 5 times with his .38 S&W. afterwards he petitioned S&W to chamber the i-frame in .38 Special... the .38 J-frame Chief Special was born.

not to start a fight on this stopping power forum,but there is a good arguement that any gun used to fight back will run off most of the criminally weak minded types, they're looking for easy prey.

a vest pocket .25 provided that deterrent for a long time..


Yeah, that’s a useful distinction to make: between a ‘stop’ that simply involved the attacker deciding to discontinue his attack, vs the attacker being rendered unable to continue.

While both types involve the attacker stopping, only the latter sort measures the ability of the round in question to ‘force’ a stop in someone who doesn’t want to quit.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on October 21 2017 12:02:46 PM
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5049 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  12:02:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The most common argument I hear from the pro-baby-gun crowd is 'Are you willing to let me shoot you with it?' Yeah, well, I'm not gonna let you run over me with a Yugo, either, but I still won't recommend it for daily transportation.

The 'It's better than no gun at all' theme only works if the bad guy doesn't get mad at you for shooting him with it, and he comes back and kicks the snot out of you. With a .25, he might not find out until he takes his shirt of to get in the shower. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4375 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  12:25:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As gw points out, some perps, maybe most, will be deterred by the presence of any gun, baby guns included. So long as the thug who chooses you as his victim is that sort, then the person with the baby gun will be OK.

“Hey, I can save you some money by giving you a parachute that will work fine, most of the time...”

When they ask if you’d agree to be shot with their baby gun, I like to make a counter-proposal: ‘How about a duel at 25 yds, me with my ‘grown-up’ gun and you with your ‘baby’?’

‘My baby gun is better than nothing’— true.

‘My fullsize gun beats the heck out of your baby gun’— also true.

The main advantage of true ‘vest pocket’ guns like the Baby Browning and the Seecamp, is that they can be slipped into a pocket and ‘disappear’. I know you can jam your J-frame into a front pants pocket, but it’s not really concealed if anybody’s looking....

And once you graduate to a bigger gun that needs a holster, it’s all a matter of dressing around the gun, as Evan likes to point out. And once you’re doing that, it’s not that much harder to dress around a fullsize gun.

OTOH, there are always exceptions: my workplace is full of liberals, and my normal primary— a P226 in a front crossdraw OWB— would likely get spotted, and cause all kinds of problems. So I compromise, by carrying two ‘teenage guns’: Sig P938s. One in a back pocket wallet holster that I can access standing up, and one in an ankle holster that I can easily grab while sitting down.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on October 21 2017 1:25:53 PM
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Evan
Administrator

34116 Posts

Posted - October 21 2017 :  1:01:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guys, please! I figured out the concept of dressing around the gun after almost getting my head blow off with a .38 snub.

The smallest gun I carry is a .357 snub because it is a superb "One Foot In The Grave Gun". I can jam the snub against the body of the monster and empty it without worrying about a stoppage.

My two primary carry guns are a Glock 22 and Glock 27. If you think that is too radical and your baby gun will be fine, remember a baby will crap on you without any warning!

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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