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 A heritical thing happened today
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
4964 Posts

Posted - September 30 2017 :  2:58:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Went to a friend's range a little while ago to sight in a couple rifles--Stevens Model 200 .223 and Ruger 'Murican Compact .22. Had the Stevens roughly set at 2.5" low at 25 yards, with 55gr bullets, which by all my past experience with the caliber should put it pretty much 'on' at 50, and be good for no more than ~+/- a couple inches out to 250-275 yards; that is, 'minute of coyote'. This has always worked with any AR15 I've dealt with. At the range, shot it at 50 yards, and the dang thing was about 8" low. Strange, and not what I've ever had happen before. But went ahead and set it dead-on at 50, and will check it out at 100 and 200 when the friend gets home so he can spot for me (gave my spotting scope to the brother, and my legs are too short to walk back and forth to look at holes in paper).

So, moved up to 25 yards for the little .22, and found out that my 'rough' sight-in for it put it just right with sub-sonic hollow point squirrel getters. Then, decided just for informational purposes, to check the .223 at 25--knowing that whatever I messed up in the 'rough' sight-in, now that it's on at 50, it should be the proper 2.5-ish inches low. Here's the heretical part: it's also dead on at 25, which just ain't supposed to happen. Makes me wonder if I have a magical gun or something. Hopefully the 100 and 200 'check-up' will still have it capable of minute-of-yodel-dog accuracy; I don't want to have to do a lot of guesstimating when Wile E is way out there across the hay field.
So, am I doing something wrong, or is my rifle broke? Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.

WR Moore
Senior Member

USA
828 Posts

Posted - September 30 2017 :  4:34:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If the Stevens is a bolt gun, the usual assumption is that bore centerline to scope centerline is ~1.5 inches.

Now, about the rest, I've never checked 25 yard POI after rough sighting and certainly never checked 25 vs 50 yard POI. Given the first result I have to wonder about the mounts/rings being either swapped or a couple loose screws. That said, I've had some weird results with a bore sighter every once in awhile. In fact, I attached the red cap from a WD-40 can to a tree some distance from my basement door. I can put a bolt rifle in a bench vise, center the red cap in the bore, lock the vise and dial the scope in. I'm usually really close.

Just had a thought, loose action screws?

Edited by - WR Moore on September 30 2017 4:35:04 PM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4147 Posts

Posted - September 30 2017 :  4:51:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Went to a friend's range a little while ago to sight in a couple rifles--Stevens Model 200 .223 and Ruger 'Murican Compact .22. Had the Stevens roughly set at 2.5" low at 25 yards, with 55gr bullets, which by all my past experience with the caliber should put it pretty much 'on' at 50, and be good for no more than ~+/- a couple inches out to 250-275 yards; that is, 'minute of coyote'. This has always worked with any AR15 I've dealt with. At the range, shot it at 50 yards, and the dang thing was about 8" low. Strange, and not what I've ever had happen before. But went ahead and set it dead-on at 50, and will check it out at 100 and 200 when the friend gets home so he can spot for me (gave my spotting scope to the brother, and my legs are too short to walk back and forth to look at holes in paper).

So, moved up to 25 yards for the little .22, and found out that my 'rough' sight-in for it put it just right with sub-sonic hollow point squirrel getters. Then, decided just for informational purposes, to check the .223 at 25--knowing that whatever I messed up in the 'rough' sight-in, now that it's on at 50, it should be the proper 2.5-ish inches low. Here's the heretical part: it's also dead on at 25, which just ain't supposed to happen. Makes me wonder if I have a magical gun or something. Hopefully the 100 and 200 'check-up' will still have it capable of minute-of-yodel-dog accuracy; I don't want to have to do a lot of guesstimating when Wile E is way out there across the hay field.
So, am I doing something wrong, or is my rifle broke? Ace


One other possibility: it's messing with your mind....

Have you done or said anything lately to hurt its feelings? Unintentionally committed any microagressions against it?

I've heard that some .223s can be sort of.... touchy.... after years of being disparaged as "poodle-shooters", or even worse.....



"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on September 30 2017 4:53:19 PM
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gw
Advanced Member

3875 Posts

Posted - September 30 2017 :  5:43:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
a kind of rough estimate not knowing ammo specs

with the sight 1.5" above the bore a typical 55gr .223 load sighted zero at 50yds, will be about -.5" low at 25 yds and .5" high at 100 yds

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4147 Posts

Posted - September 30 2017 :  5:54:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mystery solved....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
4964 Posts

Posted - September 30 2017 :  8:15:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, the screws are tight, and have redneck Loctite to keep them that way. Don't know the scope-to-bore-axis distance, but thinking on it, I did use low rings this time, and I normally use mediums, so maybe that threw me off. Then again, Bill might be right about it messing with my mind; I did sell it once to a guy for a project, then bought it back when his idea didn't pan out. Then I had it up for sale a few weeks ago on another site, but nobody wanted it. Maybe it's feeling a little rejected.
The friend didn't get home today so we could give it a longer-range workout, so maybe tomorrow afternoon or early next week.
Keep the ideas coming. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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gw
Advanced Member

3875 Posts

Posted - September 30 2017 :  9:21:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
get a tape and measure the scope height above the bore......

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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esq_stu
Senior Member

USA
907 Posts

Posted - October 02 2017 :  5:16:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Well, the screws are tight, and have redneck Loctite . . .
Keep the ideas coming. Ace

huh? What's that, pray tell?

Kol Tuv (All the best!)

-- esq_stu

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Ben B.
Senior Member

667 Posts

Posted - October 03 2017 :  12:51:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Super glue or fingernail polish

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." --Thomas Jefferson
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
4964 Posts

Posted - October 03 2017 :  09:57:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yup, fingernail polish. It's not just for painting sights, ya'know. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2864 Posts

Posted - October 03 2017 :  12:00:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The bore axis-to-sight axis distance is critical when using a short range zero to 'estimate' a long range POI. Comparing what a specific load did in one gun to what it does in another gun is useless if the bore axis is different.

The bore/sight axis on a standard A2 sighted AR is radically different than a lower mounted scope. They are two different critters.


Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
4964 Posts

Posted - October 03 2017 :  7:25:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Got out with the bud this afternoon, shot some at 100 yards. My 'problem child' is hitting right at 2" high, with Remington 55gr FMJ, Wolf Military Classic 55gr SP, and Prvi Partisan 55gr SP, all the same. Didn't get to go back to 200, but if we don't get rained out tomorrow, the brother and I will be trying to call in some 'yotes, maybe give me a chance to try some longer shots. Even if the yodel dogs don't cooperate, we can probably find some crows sitting in some fields; they make pretty good 'sight testers'. Shoot 'em in the head, and there's enough meat left to make a stew, too. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9334 Posts

Posted - October 04 2017 :  11:11:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ace, it is all about the height of the sight above the bore.

My scoped .22 rifles I sight in dead on at 75 yards (that is with HV hollow points) - it is so close to on at 25 yards I'd call it good but it is actually a tiny bit high (maybe 1/8"). It is 1.2" high at 50.

I don't doubt a bit that a subsonic is on at 25 and 50, it will be a little bit high at around 37.5 yards.

On the .223 it is also about sight height - with the sights 2.6" above the bore on an AR if the gun is zeroed at around 250 yards (or meters) it will be almost dead on at 50 yards (or meters) and it will be 1 1/8" to 1 1/4" low at 25 but that changes if your scope is 1.5" above the bore.

Jim H.

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!

Edited by - Jim Higginbotham on October 04 2017 11:14:28 AM
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gw
Advanced Member

3875 Posts

Posted - October 04 2017 :  1:11:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Got out with the bud this afternoon, shot some at 100 yards. My 'problem child' is hitting right at 2" high, with Remington 55gr FMJ, Wolf Military Classic 55gr SP, and Prvi Partisan 55gr SP, all the same. Didn't get to go back to 200, but if we don't get rained out tomorrow, the brother and I will be trying to call in some 'yotes, maybe give me a chance to try some longer shots. Even if the yodel dogs don't cooperate, we can probably find some crows sitting in some fields; they make pretty good 'sight testers'. Shoot 'em in the head, and there's enough meat left to make a stew, too. Ace



with a scope height of 1.5", +2" @100yds should be about +1" @200yds

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
4964 Posts

Posted - October 04 2017 :  3:19:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, the scope is very close, if not zactly, 1.5" above the bore. I'm gonna leave it where it is, as it will be good to 50 yards for shooting pigs through the ear if I should ever want to shoot a pig through the ear with it. +2"/100 and--agreeing with gw (until I can actually shoot it and prove us both right or wro...wr...., well, mistaken)--~+1/dead on-ish at 200 will keep me well within minute of coyote at any range I'd be shooting at one. Might have to be a bit more carefuller on crows, but it should still be good.
Drizzly rain this morning, no yodel dogs cared about the scared rabbit or crying puppy calls, though we did see some run across the road in front of us, so we know they were out and about. No chance for a try at some longer-distance crows, which turns out to be a good thing; I forgot that my state actually has a crow season, and today ain't it. When it dries out, more shooting paper to check stuff, but for now I'm content. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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