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 .380 JHP or FMJ ball on Colt Mustang
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PJS
New Member

Philippines
55 Posts

Posted - August 09 2017 :  8:14:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello. For quite some time because of the extreme tropical weather here in our country and the high humidity. My usual carry piece is a Colt Mustang pocketlite. I normally carry it with Remington golden sabers. But I have read an article recommending to just better to use FMJ ball Ammo for .380 to maximize penetration. because JHP usually does not expand when clogged up with garment material. I don't know if this applies only to winter weather because our Usual dress code we have here is just one shirt without any jacket. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks.

gw
Advanced Member

3979 Posts

Posted - August 09 2017 :  9:59:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
if a hollow point fails to expand it acts like ball, if it is clogged you have at least ball performance, winter clothing or not

hollow point .380 ammo that doesn't expand or offers minimum expansion like XTP is usually recommended because it will normally penetrate more like ball

if a hollow point that does expand is not recommended because it fails to penetrate, but a hollow point that does not expand is recommended because it performs like ball, why not just load ball.

I carry a small .380, if I can get a good hollow point round I load it, if not I load a good quality ball round.

it's a .380, it has limitations, I'd worry more about how I use it than what it's loaded with

the Golden Saber round is a good option, if I had a bunch I'd make sure it works in my gun, sight it in, load it up, and carry that



"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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PJS
New Member

Philippines
55 Posts

Posted - August 10 2017 :  05:36:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
is +P necessary? To obtain maximum depth and expansion? I used to load up my PPK with Corbon 90 grain +P, but we dont have it in the market here anymore so for .380 we are limited with standard pressure ammo.
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Pop Pop
Senior Member

USA
661 Posts

Posted - August 10 2017 :  08:16:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I carried a Pocketlite for years, mostly as a backup. I found the Rem Golden Saber the ammo I carried because it shot to point of aim and I never had any stoppages with it. I felt well served by that ammo.

Pop Pop
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Arvinator
Advanced Member

USA
5244 Posts

Posted - August 10 2017 :  08:39:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I carry a Glock 42 in .380 in the role of "3rd gun". I now have it loaded with Critical Defense and my hopes/plan is to empty the gun in the problem as a "Get off me".


Be honest, fair, and always prepared...
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gw
Advanced Member

3979 Posts

Posted - August 10 2017 :  08:54:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PJS

is +P necessary? To obtain maximum depth and expansion? I used to load up my PPK with Corbon 90 grain +P, but we dont have it in the market here anymore so for .380 we are limited with standard pressure ammo.



high pressure/velocity .380 might actually improve expansion but limit penetration, not increase penetration.

you can't turn a .380 into a 9mm.

you say you can't get +p so don't worry about it

a small.380 is easy to hide, surprise an attacker, he'll never see it coming. take advantage of that. use ammo that's reliable and easy to control.

the best choice in .380 ammo should expand minimally and penetrate like ball, or just load ball.

my thoughts


"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
4974 Posts

Posted - August 10 2017 :  1:16:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
GW has pretty well laid out the penetration vs. expansion issues. The .380 is a 'Tweener round that can't quite do both at once. But the guns are too real world handy to be easily discounted. I agree with GW. Load for penetration. Compensate for smaller holes by adding more of them. Fast. Carry a spare mag.

Jeff

jle3030
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PJS
New Member

Philippines
55 Posts

Posted - August 10 2017 :  9:52:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks!
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
4974 Posts

Posted - August 11 2017 :  08:29:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There is also the question of physical stature of the assailants likely to be shot. Here in the USA I favor calibers and loads least likely to fail against a worst case attacker. So I lean toward penetration. Will the round go deeply enough into a large human that it still has enough steam to break the spine should it hit that key structure?

What is the physical profile of your likely opponents in the Philippines? Will a good .380 JHP likely get deep enough for your purposes? Will .380 ball create a near certain shoot through?

I once read a book by a former Navy Seal discussing his combat experiences in Vietnam. He went from a 7.5 inch Kabar knife to a 5.5 inch blade after stabbing a Vietnamese opponent who was draped over his Lieutenant's thigh. The knife completely penetrated the smaller man's body and embedded itself in the Lieutenant's leg.

Or maybe we're just overthinking this thing. Search Jim Higginbotham's posts on his experiences with smaller caliber bullets on "volunteer" animals under 20 pounds weight.

Ultimately Elmer Keith's advise probably still applies: "Shoot 'em with the biggest [expletive deleted] gun you can." And some Marshall guy who recommended dressing around the gun. Radical I know, but...

Jeff

jle3030
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gw
Advanced Member

3979 Posts

Posted - August 11 2017 :  09:04:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

There is also the question of physical stature of the assailants likely to be shot. Here in the USA I favor calibers and loads least likely to fail against a worst case attacker. So I lean toward penetration. Will the round go deeply enough into a large human that it still has enough steam to break the spine should it hit that key structure?

What is the physical profile of your likely opponents in the Philippines? Will a good .380 JHP likely get deep enough for your purposes? Will .380 ball create a near certain shoot through?

I once read a book by a former Navy Seal discussing his combat experiences in Vietnam. He went from a 7.5 inch Kabar knife to a 5.5 inch blade after stabbing a Vietnamese opponent who was draped over his Lieutenant's thigh. The knife completely penetrated the smaller man's body and embedded itself in the Lieutenant's leg.

Or maybe we're just overthinking this thing. Search Jim Higginbotham's posts on his experiences with smaller caliber bullets on "volunteer" animals under 20 pounds weight.

Ultimately Elmer Keith's advise probably still applies: "Shoot 'em with the biggest [expletive deleted] gun you can." And some Marshall guy who recommended dressing around the gun. Radical I know, but...

Jeff



I heard that SEAL knife story, a strange comment.... I would have kept my knife and just trained the Lt to stop wearing the enemy.(besides my K-bar has a 7 inch blade?)

I got a story, years ago I Had a CSM former MACVSOG in Vietnam. When he retired he became a "contractor" for the Government. He traveled to places where he couldn't have a gun, like South America, so he carried a .22 with a suppressor.

the .22 and 300-400 rounds didn't take up much room in a diplomatic pouch, suppressed it didn't make much noise and upset the neighbors.

last time I saw him in Fayetteville NC he showed me his carry gun, a Walther TPH with a threaded barrel in a worn down pocket holster.

he doesn't like to ask permission to carry his gun

obviously he just stuck with what he knew


"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on August 11 2017 09:19:25 AM
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gw
Advanced Member

3979 Posts

Posted - August 11 2017 :  10:08:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
peoplle tend to focus on a patricular gun and ammo combination like it's some type of talisman, a lucky charm that keeps them safe regardless of the situation

they'd be ahead to pay attention to the world around them

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
4974 Posts

Posted - August 11 2017 :  12:10:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

There is also the question of physical stature of the assailants likely to be shot. Here in the USA I favor calibers and loads least likely to fail against a worst case attacker. So I lean toward penetration. Will the round go deeply enough into a large human that it still has enough steam to break the spine should it hit that key structure?

What is the physical profile of your likely opponents in the Philippines? Will a good .380 JHP likely get deep enough for your purposes? Will .380 ball create a near certain shoot through?

I once read a book by a former Navy Seal discussing his combat experiences in Vietnam. He went from a 7.5 inch Kabar knife to a 5.5 inch blade after stabbing a Vietnamese opponent who was draped over his Lieutenant's thigh. The knife completely penetrated the smaller man's body and embedded itself in the Lieutenant's leg.

Or maybe we're just overthinking this thing. Search Jim Higginbotham's posts on his experiences with smaller caliber bullets on "volunteer" animals under 20 pounds weight.

Ultimately Elmer Keith's advise probably still applies: "Shoot 'em with the biggest [expletive deleted] gun you can." And some Marshall guy who recommended dressing around the gun. Radical I know, but...

Jeff



I heard that SEAL knife story, a strange comment.... I would have kept my knife and just trained the Lt to stop wearing the enemy.(besides my K-bar has a 7 inch blade?)

I got a story, years ago I Had a CSM former MACVSOG in Vietnam. When he retired he became a "contractor" for the Government. He traveled to places where he couldn't have a gun, like South America, so he carried a .22 with a suppressor.

the .22 and 300-400 rounds didn't take up much room in a diplomatic pouch, suppressed it didn't make much noise and upset the neighbors.

last time I saw him in Fayetteville NC he showed me his carry gun, a Walther TPH with a threaded barrel in a worn down pocket holster.

he doesn't like to ask permission to carry his gun

obviously he just stuck with what he knew

Oops. That's what I get for texting without checking. The K-bar is in fact seven inches.

As for experienced operators packing .22's, I'm certainly not that, but I have just bought a Beretta 21A as a practice/understudy gun for a couple small .380's. (Cheaper to shoot in the volume required to gain the necessary level of proficiency to make these little poppers work.)

As I age, my back is becoming less tolerant of even a Glock 19, so I'm edging into the small sneaky gun skill set to supplement the airweight .38 snubs I've always considered as minimal effective carry.

I've always been a dress around the bigger gun guy, but I can see those days may be numbered. There seems to be a body of knowledge surrounding effective tactical presentation and application of the mousegun that is known to some, but not widely taught.

Jeff

jle3030

Edited by - jle3030 on August 11 2017 12:12:39 PM
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gw
Advanced Member

3979 Posts

Posted - August 11 2017 :  12:44:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
little .22s like the 21a fill a lot of needs for me, training is one. pack one up with afew hundred roundswhen I travel, if i can...

I feel you on the back, mines a mess lately

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4311 Posts

Posted - August 11 2017 :  5:19:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's why I like the .22 LR conversion slides for my P-series Sigs: cheap to practice with, with the same grip and trigger action as when I'm shooting centerfire rounds.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on August 11 2017 5:19:27 PM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9411 Posts

Posted - August 12 2017 :  11:24:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As always, everyone has to work out his own salvation, and I recognize that each lethal encounter is unique and the results depend on a whole bunch of factors (most of which are not ballistic in nature).

I gave up on the .380 a long time ago, but that doesn't mean it does not ever work.

3 cases stand out to me:

1 a 95 gr ball round bounced off a subject's sternum when the angle was straight on. The weapon (Walther) had a stoppage that could not be cleared quickly so he only got the one shot.

2. unknown bullet stuck in an officers rib. He chased down his attackers and killed one and shot the other.

3. A local officer (who is sorta famous on youtube for shooting himself in the hand) had a .380 ball round break but bounce off the bone in his middle finger. I know the investigator in this case and the bullet bounced 90 degrees and struck the wall of the shop). Good thing because there were 4 people right in the path of the direction of fire. I would point out a finger bone is not very substantial!

All of the other survivors in incidents involving .380s that I've interviewed stated the .380 failed its user as well.

I emphatically point out that half a dozen cases does not make a study but in every case, but two, the fellows using the .380 were either killed or severely injured (and in one exception the gun had malfunctioned and the officer had to subdue the armed criminal with his hands which he did successfully).

Again, you can put your money on whichever horse in the race you want. I won't carry a .380 with either ball or JHP but that is just me. I tell no one else what to do.

Jim H.

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gw
Advanced Member

3979 Posts

Posted - August 12 2017 :  12:53:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
self defense shootings are full of failures

a few months ago a local woman confronted an attecker in her house with a .380

the attacker knocked her down, straddled her, and grabbed her gun.

the .380 discharged, the ball round punched through his hand,and hit the attacker under the chin.

that one was a stop.....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on August 12 2017 12:55:50 PM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4311 Posts

Posted - August 12 2017 :  4:33:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Since it's always a 'crapshoot', why not carry the round with the most chance of stopping your opponent, in whatever size of gun you're able to carry?

As Evan has pointed out elsewhere, today's 'micro-9s' are close in size to all but the tiniest .380s. I'm guessing that most folks who conceal-carry a .380 could also conceal a tiny 9.

Compared to the .380 Mustang Pocketlite, my 9mm Sig P938 is basically the same size: same height and width, less than a half-inch longer.

As Jim always says, 'We each have to choose our own salvation'.

To which I'll add: 'It's your funeral.....'


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on August 12 2017 5:29:11 PM
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gw
Advanced Member

3979 Posts

Posted - August 13 2017 :  11:36:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
some parts of the world don't allow civilians to own guns that are used by the military like the 9mm. our friend here is from the Phillipines, not sure about the gun laws but I suspect he's fortunate to have the means to own several handguns.

even in the US guns available to citizens can be limited, so sometimes a .25 or .380 is what you get

good or bad sales indicate there are a bunch of small .380s around.

some agencies only allow small automatics for backup, usually .380.

folks I have a high opinion of pratice just that,carrying LCPs as hideouts and backups.

a local deputy carries 2 LCPs all the time on and off duty. he also carries a G22 w/5 magazines, an AR, a shotgun, plus a 10mm in his trunk. he's not very big, I think he's compensating, he shoots that 10mm like I've never seen.

what tou load one with is a good question

the caliper wars survive.....




"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2917 Posts

Posted - August 13 2017 :  12:55:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

some parts of the world don't allow civilians to own guns that are used by the military like the 9mm. our friend here is from the Phillipines, not sure about the gun laws but I suspect he's fortunate to have the means to own several handguns.

even in the US guns available to citizens can be limited, so sometimes a .25 or .380 is what you get

good or bad sales indicate there are a bunch of small .380s around.

some agencies only allow small automatics for backup, usually .380.

folks I have a high opinion of pratice just that,carrying LCPs as hideouts and backups.

a local deputy carries 2 LCPs all the time on and off duty. he also carries a G22 w/5 magazines, an AR, a shotgun, plus a 10mm in his trunk. he's not very big, I think he's compensating, he shoots that 10mm like I've never seen.

what tou load one with is a good question

the caliper wars survive.....







Well said! Sometimes you have to play the hand you are dealt.
Years back in the P.I., I could get a permit for a .22LR handgun and did. A permit application for a .45 ACP (and a lot of $$) was in progress when Marcos declared martial law in Sept 1972. All existing permits, and applications, then became invalid.... and no, my $$ were not refunded.

I have no idea what the 'permit' situation, or gun/ammo availability in the P.I. is today. But, anything... even the Llama .22 I carried... beats a 'stern glance'.

So what does a guy in the P.I. carry? Whatever he can get away with legally! What does he load it with? Whatever he can find in enough quantities to run through his gun and make sure it works.

Sometimes you don't get a lot of choices and have to live with what choices you have. Even a .22LR beats a 'stern glance'.

If I had to recommend loads for a .380 they would be: Hornady XTP, Remington Golden Saber, and Speer Gold Dot.

If I couldn't find those I would take whatever I could find that I knew was reliable in the gun. Sometimes we tend to overthink things.
JMHO

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4311 Posts

Posted - August 13 2017 :  2:38:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All very true! Any gun is better than no gun. If our brother in the Philippines is limited to carrying a .380, he's wise to try and figure out what the most effective load for it would be; and my opining that 'a more potent caliber would be better' is irrelevant to his situation.

OTOH, those of us fortunate enough to live in the US are not limited in the gun or caliber we carry. Our limitations are usually related to two factors: the size of the gun we're able to effectively conceal, and a caliber/gun combination we can shoot well with.

If you shoot that .380 well, but a similar-sized micro-9 is a bit too much, by all means go for the .380. But if you can handle the 9, and it's available in the same size package as the .380: why not opt for the round that gives you a little bit of an edge?

Much as I liked my Sig P230, when the P938 came out--- same weight, smaller size, 9mm instead of .380--- I sold the former and got the latter. The 230 was a little easier to shoot; but the 938 hits harder. Everything is a trade-off....

Of course, when you get down to it, it's the Indian not the arrow. But when a smart Indian sees a better arrow, why wouldn't he go for it...


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on August 13 2017 3:04:29 PM
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hopleyyeaton
Junior Member

USA
103 Posts

Posted - August 15 2017 :  1:40:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You might also consider the fluted solids from Lehigh which are also loaded by Underwood.
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Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1668 Posts

Posted - August 16 2017 :  02:08:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello,

Put me firmly in the JHP camp on this one.

I'm not sure what your options are for ball ammo in the P.I., but keep in mind that a lot of FMJ is loaded slower than JHPs in the same weight.--often 50 to 75 fps slower. Since the .380 doesn't have a lot of power to begin with, you might consider sticking with JHP ammo just for the higher velocity.

Also, I think the flatter nose of the JHP is better, even if the bullet doesn't open, because the edge can "dig in" and the chance of a deflection is lower. That rounded nose of the FMJ bullets is one of the reasons we hear so many stories about the low power .380 deflecting off bones, buttons, zippers, and skulls I think. Go with the square profile of JHP instead.

V/R
Mike
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gw
Advanced Member

3979 Posts

Posted - August 16 2017 :  10:06:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ten Driver

Hello,

Put me firmly in the JHP camp on this one.

I'm not sure what your options are for ball ammo in the P.I., but keep in mind that a lot of FMJ is loaded slower than JHPs in the same weight.--often 50 to 75 fps slower. Since the .380 doesn't have a lot of power to begin with, you might consider sticking with JHP ammo just for the higher velocity.

Also, I think the flatter nose of the JHP is better, even if the bullet doesn't open, because the edge can "dig in" and the chance of a deflection is lower. That rounded nose of the FMJ bullets is one of the reasons we hear so many stories about the low power .380 deflecting off bones, buttons, zippers, and skulls I think. Go with the square profile of JHP instead.

V/R
Mike



I haven't seen the velocity increase through my guns. Fiocchi 95gr ball is a bit faster than Hornady Custom 90 gr xtp, the Fiocchi Extrema 90gr xtp is about a wash.

another consideration is tumbling. the standard velocity ball .380 has a tendency to tumble, much like .45 ball. (I have a theory tumbling is why .45 ball has the reputation it does with some users).

tumbling is probably a good thing but not predictable, but flat nose ball at low velocity seems to turn reliably in media, also bullets long for caliper like the 100gr .380 ammo.

interestingly the .380 xtp loads tumble regularly with little expansion. maybe a plus for hollow point, the light tip is unstable at impact.

ball that perforates a target opens two holes, exit wounds increase blood loss. i'm not convinced a shoot through is all bad with the .380.

it's not shot placement it's wound placement, ball tends to travel in straight lines, seems to make placement more predictable.

more than one way to skin a possum

don't know about square edges digging into bone, maybe


"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9411 Posts

Posted - August 17 2017 :  09:44:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
GW;

I don't know that it is reliable or predictable but I do think you are correct about .45 Ball.

I do not have any info on internal wounds with .380 ball (though I have interviewed a fellow that was shot 8 times with .380 ball through the torso at a distance of about 4 feet. None of them exited but also none were really good hits (a couple to the lungs) and the bullets were removed but he had no idea if they tumbled or deformed).

The hits did not disable him and after he emptied his war souvenir PPK 7.65 *at* the shooter (missing all of his shots as he backed away).

The two guys involved became friends later in life and that is when I met them at the Lexington Bluegrass Army Depot.

I have an acquaintance who shot a fellow outside a Memphis bar with 2 rounds of Super Vel JHP from his PPK but there is no information on what happened to the "shootee" after he drew a big knife and gutted the shooter and after he fell kicked him in the head with a steel capped cowboy boot which dislodged a 2" piece of his skull - he was in a coma for quite some time and when he came out of it he could not really remember who the guy with the knife was and no bodies showed up in the aftermath so no way to know what the long term results of those rounds were - distance was arm's length and the guy was a pretty good shot. He was a class III dealer there in Memphis until he got in trouble over taxes and such (his brain was never really right after that incident).

Jim

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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2917 Posts

Posted - August 17 2017 :  10:57:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just my thoughts... but... if you have to, or choose to, carry a Mouse Gun. Center Mass, and conventional self-defense training, is not going to be your friend. These are 'in your face' (or better yet 'In Your Throat') guns.

Yes... mini-bullets can bounce off skulls... but they also penetrate eyes or nasal cavity quite well. And, any bullet banging into a skull, even if it bounces off, can provide a bit of temporary stun affect to let you get a few more into that target area.

Dump 4 or 5 rounds quickly into some thug's face and their attitude will often adjust a bit. Stick a few in the soft throat tissue and it WILL adjust.

I was well aware of this when I was toting my Llama .22 around the "Wild West" P.I. back in 72... although in the interest of full disclosure I never had to test the above theory with that gun.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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gw
Advanced Member

3979 Posts

Posted - August 17 2017 :  12:52:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
jim:

I met a soldier that put 7 rounds of .45 ball into a charging Iraqi, then had to club him with his Commander until he bent the trigger guard.

the Iraqi got to his feet, took 2 rounds of buckshot, and dropped knife still in his hand.

the soldiers comment to me was, he was glad he wasn't using a 9mm.

war stories abound.....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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