StoppingPower.net Forums
Home
Forums
Commentary
H&S
About
StoppingPower.net Forums

StoppingPower.net Forums - new Infantry rifle
StoppingPower.net Forums
StoppingPower.net Forums
Forums Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ | Invite a friend
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Shooting
 The Rifle Rack
 new Infantry rifle
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

gw
Advanced Member

3979 Posts

Posted - August 08 2017 :  09:58:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the Army is requesting bids for a 7.62x51 rifle to replace the M4 in some forward deployed Infantry units.

they are also considering adopting the Marine M27 instead for these same units

the need is for a reliable rifle with better downrange performance than the current systems (penetration).

both services are being pressured to accept common weapons and ammo

the Marines are using the M855A1 ammo now, but it has proven less than optimal, despite attempts by the Army to improve that rounds performance through the M27.

Marine testing over the last year have shown that the M855A1 round's higher operating pressure is breaking bolts and it's metal tip is damaging feed ramps.

there is a new ammor piercing round being developed that could be used in the M4, but there is a movement within the services to just develope that round for the 7.62.

the Armies attempt to make the 5.56 a 7.62 seems to be loosing ground. also the Marine's idea to stealth purchase the HK416 for it's combat infantry units is falling short ballistically.

both conditions were predicted.

the Army was warned that the high operating pressure generated by the M855a1 round would break rifles.o

both services see an urgent need for a more affctive rifle round capable of better penetration. the usual suspects are supplying equipment to our enemies that can defeat current ammo.

we might feel that deficiancy big time if things keep escalating in N.Korea....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on August 08 2017 11:10:30 AM

Evan
Administrator

34096 Posts

Posted - August 08 2017 :  12:47:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Remember when S&W put thumb safeties on the M&P because the miliotary was going back to the .45? The problem right now is dealing with gun shy and itty bitty soldiers who find the M4 too heavy and too hard to shoot accurately.. What should be reality is now impacted by political factors.


"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

Go to Top of Page

gw
Advanced Member

3979 Posts

Posted - August 09 2017 :  12:22:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
their talking about a COTS purchase of 50,000. enough for 5 combat brigades maybe.

the rest of the Army stays with the M4 until at least 2020 when a new system is fielded

the usual problems of capatability with NATO and replacing existing forward stock piles already in place are in play

it seems based on an urgent need to equip for new tactics being encountered in Afghanistan and maybe a build up for North Koreans outfitted with the latest Chinese personel protection equipment.

I would not be surprised to see an additional COTS procurement of the SCAR-H.

the troops getting these can run with the extra weight, swim too

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
Go to Top of Page

wolfgang2000
Advanced Member

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - August 09 2017 :  1:50:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That is one way to get a more effective round without making all of NATO change. It only took 50 years for them to come to their senses.


“The key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a tactical philosophy.” Evan Marshall
Go to Top of Page

gw
Advanced Member

3979 Posts

Posted - August 15 2017 :  11:52:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I talked to a Marine officer involved in logistics, also had several tours in combat

to paraphrase, planners want to select a weapon system (rifle) based on ballistic gel testing and an estimated number of rounds per " kill". he sees this as the bean counter method of weapon selection.

the method is to determine terminal performance based on lab testing, take the number of rounds per "kill" times the weight. if the result falls within the combat load requirements, tag that's it.

in other words 50 rounds of "A " are more effective, but a grunt can carry 150 rounds of "B", so "B" is it.

his view, that's fine but if someone is trying to kill him he wants round "A".

trying to make that point to non combat experienced bean counters has been challenging.....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
Go to Top of Page

Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2917 Posts

Posted - August 15 2017 :  12:15:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

I talked to a Marine officer involved in logistics, also had several tours in combat

to paraphrase, planners want to select a weapon system (rifle) based on ballistic gel testing and an estimated number of rounds per " kill". he sees this as the bean counter method of weapon selection.

the method is to determine terminal performance based on lab testing, take the number of rounds per "kill" times the weight. if the result falls within the combat load requirements, tag that's it.

in other words 50 rounds of "A " are more effective, but a grunt can carry 150 rounds of "B", so "B" is it.

his view, that's fine but if someone is trying to kill him he wants round "A".

trying to make that point to non combat experienced bean counters has been challenging.....



Kinda like McNamara's band during Nam. If were firing X-number of rounds and dropping X-tons of bombs then "statistical analysis' tells us that we are winning!

Yeah, that worked out pretty well.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
Go to Top of Page

bandaidman
Advanced Member

USA
1298 Posts

Posted - August 16 2017 :  12:36:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Best solution would be to take the bean counters for atrip to the Stan and a hot FOB. one that 5.56 is just not quite good enough. Then have then shoot at the bad guys and see if they want to keep the 5.56 or something like 6.5 mm or 7.62 might make a believer out of them

“If for a while the harder you try, the harder it gets, take heart. So it has been with the best people who ever lived.
Jeffery Holland
Go to Top of Page

jlwilliams
Junior Member

USA
233 Posts

Posted - August 16 2017 :  5:46:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It would be great if they switched over to something better, but it's hard to imagine the transition. A good argument can be made for something akin to the 6.5 Grendel (or insert your pet round here...) as being a better service rifle round but the services have never been quick to change. The cost associated with the transition, let alone the hassle of not having what everyone else has is staggering.
Go to Top of Page

LittleBill
Advanced Member

4311 Posts

Posted - August 16 2017 :  5:55:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Handl Defense interchangable barrel assemblies are available on the civilian market for the SCAR-17 (semiauto version of SCAR-H ) in 6.5 Grendel and .260 Remington. They ain't cheap though.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on August 16 2017 5:56:05 PM
Go to Top of Page

Pat Taylor
Starting Member

USA
39 Posts

Posted - August 17 2017 :  02:00:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
FAL scaled down for a rimless 7-30 Waters was something I always thought would be a nice fighting rifle. Later on I looked up the .280 British round and it is almost identical to the 7-30 Waters ballistics.
Go to Top of Page

jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
4974 Posts

Posted - August 17 2017 :  06:29:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ammo load weight will be an issue with any larger caliber. Troops have needed lighter combat loads for decades, but there it seems ever more hi tech gear to hump. Maybe they ought to bring back mules?

Perhaps there is hope on the horizon. With female troops getting into previously all male combat units, the weight factor becomes grounds for complaints of sexism. That makes it a political issue, which should frighten the Brass and the politicians into action.

By the same token though ammo weight would be part of the problem, which could bring us right back to square one with the 5.56.

Jeff

jle3030
Go to Top of Page

JMAC
Average Member

USA
386 Posts

Posted - August 17 2017 :  11:08:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Can't count how many times I've heard about a new military rifle over the last thirty years!
Go to Top of Page

gw
Advanced Member

3979 Posts

Posted - August 17 2017 :  1:15:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JMAC

Can't count how many times I've heard about a new military rifle over the last thirty years!



a 5.56mm M16 variant, of one type or another, has been in service for 50 years, bound to change sometime.

studies suggest that over half the fire fights in Afghanistan occured beyond 300m, pushing the limits of current weapon systems.

other enemies watch these repors as well

the big complaint is the squad automatic belt fed

originally the SAW was designed to be a 6mm, planners were told improved 5.56 M855 ammo would be adequate for the light machine gun and would eliminate logistics problems of two types of ammo in the infantry squad.

that has been proven false.

the first time in Desert Storm when no AP ammo was available for the M249

now in Afgahnistan the enemy is standing off our troops with 7.62x54 guns, making available small arms ineffective.

if our Military updates the squad belt fed the best solution is a compatible rifle round.

a true intermediate round is envisioned like the 6.5 Creedmore.

can't chamber that ammo in a M16 variant at this time.


"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
StoppingPower.net Forums © 2002-16 StoppingPower.net, Inc. Go To Top Of Page
Thispagewasgeneratedin0.19seconds. Snitz Forums 2000