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 From AR to 9mm carbine?
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5049 Posts

Posted - July 18 2017 :  7:15:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Subject came up, re: old[er]guys who don't see through peeps as well now as 'back then', and the idea of switching from the .223 AR platform to the shorter-range 9mm carbine--which I'm not sure what peeps and rifle vs pistol caliber have to do with each other.
One idea is that the 9mm would be sufficient out to ~100 yards; another was 'just how often could we realistically expect to need a 200-300-+ yard rifle?'
One smart guy--we won't mention who--brought up the idea of keeping the AR, and just adding a 9mm carbine to the pile.

I guess the question is: Is there really anything wrong with moving from a low-caliber rifle to a medium-caliber rifle/carbine? Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.

Gerald
Advanced Member

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - July 18 2017 :  7:42:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Red dot sight or I remember seeing a rear sight blade that flipped like the regular sight blade but it had a large (larger than usual) ghost ring on one blade and a standard notch type sight on the other blade. It has been years, but you might look around to see if such a critter is still available..

Edited by - Gerald on July 18 2017 7:43:20 PM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4377 Posts

Posted - July 19 2017 :  07:52:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Didn't SWAT teams move from a 9mm platform (H&K MP5) to .223 (M4) due to the fact that the .223 round provided better 'stopping power' at all ranges?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on July 19 2017 07:53:13 AM
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Barnacle Bill
Advanced Member

USA
1253 Posts

Posted - July 19 2017 :  09:33:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For me (personally), the red dot sight is the solution for aging eyes. I'm trying to figure out how to put one on my toothbrush.

I have considered a 9mm AR mainly because my range allows pistol-caliber carbines in the "practical pits" (where you can practice moving & shooting, etc...) but rifle-caliber anything only on square ranges. If I actually had to use a carbine for defensive purposes, though, I can't see an advantage to a 9mm AR. There might be a logistical advantage to a pistol-caliber carbine and handgun that use the same mags.
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gw
Advanced Member

3984 Posts

Posted - July 19 2017 :  10:07:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
probably easier to point out what's right about a 9mm carbine than what's wrong

low noise
cheap to shoot
can be found in AR platform for those trained on that
in some models the carbine will use the same magazines your handgun uses

that last one is a big plus. simplifies logistics, carry of spare ammo.

for a cop, if you bail out with only a hangun your magazines work, if you grab your carbine your magazines work.

for a civilian, if you can keep an unloaded carbine legally in your vehicle, you can also legally keep loadd magazines with it if you have a pistol permit.

one possible downside might be the 5.56 with most ammo is more likely to stop inside interior walls than 9mm

for me being a big fan of 9mm Glocks with a huge supply of magazines and ammo, a 9mm carbine sounds interesting......

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Uncle Mike
Advanced Member

USA
1605 Posts

Posted - July 19 2017 :  10:29:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi, a friend had a Colt 9mm semi auto rifle with a red dot. We routinely hit a metal plate out at 100yrds. It was an AR platform, low recoil, accurate and fun to shoot. I'm not one to discourage anyone from buying a new firearm but why not just add the optic of your choice to an At 15? regards, Mike

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage"...Thucyides

"War is sweet to those who do not know it."...Erasmus
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5049 Posts

Posted - July 19 2017 :  11:29:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yep, I've tried a red dot on the AR, just not my cuppa tea; maybe if I'd played with it some more. Mine has a 2-6x scope, which works good for my purposes.

I don't see anything wrong with having both, but it seems some people don't understand the concept. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - July 19 2017 :  11:31:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

Didn't SWAT teams move from a 9mm platform (H&K MP5) to .223 (M4) due to the fact that the .223 round provided better 'stopping power' at all ranges?





The primary reason cited by the FBI was the .223 penetrated walls less than 9mm smgs - the effectiveness might be a by-product or just and added consideration.

I know a couple of SWAT commanders (one from a major Fed. Agency) who like the .45 Pistol or smg (on semi auto) because they have found it more effective (as in speed of canceling the threat) than any .223 load to non CNS areas (but only slightly so) - this is one place I think that in certain circumstances the .223 advantage in lack of over penetration might be more valuable - say in an Active Shooter situation where there are lots of by-standers.

Jim

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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2939 Posts

Posted - July 19 2017 :  12:18:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Yep, I've tried a red dot on the AR, just not my cuppa tea; maybe if I'd played with it some more. Mine has a 2-6x scope, which works good for my purposes.

I don't see anything wrong with having both, but it seems some people don't understand the concept. Ace



+1. I have red dot reflex sights on 4 guns (3 .22s and 1 9mm pistol) that I shoot in competition. However, as I've mentioned before I wouldn't put a red dot on a self defense firearm. Too many things can go wrong.

As does Ace, I have a 1x6 scope on an AR 5.56mm that I have shot in 2 and 3 Gun competition. It has bold duplex crosshair that I found every bit as fast and any range as a red dot... yet 6x was nice to crank up to when a 50 yard (or beyond) head shot showed up on the course.

Neither of my two ARs have a red dot on them. Not, do I want one on them. YMMV

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Barnacle Bill
Advanced Member

USA
1253 Posts

Posted - July 19 2017 :  5:00:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In all honesty I've never been on a two way range, but I shot a "tactical" carbine course including shoothouse using an AR with a 1-4x variable and an Aimpoint micro is WAY better, IMO (YMMV).
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zeke
Average Member

250 Posts

Posted - July 19 2017 :  9:32:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Am planning ahead, as pistol shooting skills subside. Got 4.5 in barreled 9mm carbine that is extremely short and easy to hit with (stamped). Cheap to feed/practice with, easily suppressed and about as much trouble to shoot as a 22.

Have carbines in 9mm, 357,40,44 mag, 45 lc. They will all easily reach out to 100 yds.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - July 20 2017 :  12:45:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Yep, I've tried a red dot on the AR, just not my cuppa tea; maybe if I'd played with it some more. Mine has a 2-6x scope, which works good for my purposes.

I don't see anything wrong with having both, but it seems some people don't understand the concept. Ace



+1. I have red dot reflex sights on 4 guns (3 .22s and 1 9mm pistol) that I shoot in competition. However, as I've mentioned before I wouldn't put a red dot on a self defense firearm. Too many things can go wrong.

As does Ace, I have a 1x6 scope on an AR 5.56mm that I have shot in 2 and 3 Gun competition. It has bold duplex crosshair that I found every bit as fast and any range as a red dot... yet 6x was nice to crank up to when a 50 yard (or beyond) head shot showed up on the course.

Neither of my two ARs have a red dot on them. Not, do I want one on them. YMMV



I certainly would not tell folks what to do but my choice is with Chris on this one. I do have a carbine or 3 with with red dots (mainly because once upon a time I trained folks equipped that way) but if I'm reaching for a long gun to defend my house it will either have iron sights only (the AR in the "ready safe" is equipped that way) or it will have a scope than can be turned to 1X.

I do have a SOCOM-16 in there as well with a 2X Scout scope but it also has BUIS on the rings for a really close quarters fast shot.

Honestly it is really meant for moving outdoors and inside I'd likely grab the scatter gun first.

My hunting ARs all have low powered scopes on them, even my SBR.

Jim H.

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840
Junior Member

USA
163 Posts

Posted - July 21 2017 :  09:12:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace
Subject came up, re: old[er]guys who don't see through peeps as well now as 'back then',...
I think it is really guys, and gals, who just don't see as well in their latter life, which also means some can't grip or grasp like they used to, or hold as steady as they once could. Unfortunately I fit all of that group. As for vision issues, I still find a good peep site to be a real value and versatile.

If we are talking a conventional AR with a peep rear and post up front, they usually have a small and large peep for range adjustment, but it is the post where many have a vision issue. Well, actually post and target, if their close-range and distant vision is or needs correction.

I've never been a fan of scoped rifles, preferring open sites since I was just a runt. Today I do have one quick-detach 1X-4X Leupold scope on my Ruger 77/.357 carbine, and the standard open sights (similar to those on their 10/22) were replaced with an excellent large opening peep rear and bigger-size white bead front sight. Excellent for quick and efficient close-target acquisition, and works a lot better for me and my bad eyes than its traditional open sights.


quote:
Originally posted by Ace
and the idea of switching from the .223 AR platform to the shorter-range 9mm carbine--which I'm not sure what peeps and rifle vs pistol caliber have to do with each other.
If I found a 9mm carbine I liked, in a firearm that worked well and was in my current-day shopping budget, I would maybe add one to my arsenal. (Maybe. I always make sure my ammo reserves are ample first. I'd rather have a few working firearms and a lot of ammo than have a big array of shootables but little to shoot through them.)

A 9mm might be better for close range work, but if it is close range I'll most likely have the urgent need to address it and that would be with as handgun. That could be what is at hand in 9mm, .45 ACP, .38 Spl. or .357 Mag. caliber.

If we are talking threat management and not a hunting discussion, then any shoulder piece (other than a shotgun) is most likely to be accessed when we have a little extra time for preparation and when we anticipate longer-range encounters or needs. Longer-range, to me, means anything beyond a typical tactical handgun range of 25 yards.

For that we might grab several options at-hand, from a lever-action to bolt-action to pump-action to a self-loader in either a decent handgun caliber or a traditional rifle caliber. In my case that would first be a .223/5.56 AR platform with traditional sights, and a second grab would be my bolt .357 Mag. w/scope or peep sites.


quote:
Originally posted by Ace
One idea is that the 9mm would be sufficient out to ~100 yards;
Maybe. I would substitute 'COULD' be for 'WOULD' be sufficient. You might have a steadier hold and aim, and likely a bit more velocity, but I know the velocity and accuracy of my .223/5.56 and would most likely grab it before a 9mm if I had the option.


quote:
Originally posted by Ace
another was 'just how often could we realistically expect to need a 200-300-+ yard rifle?'
Who says the .223/5.56 is a 200 to 300 yard rifle? And if we did need to reach out and contact a threat at that range, which of the two would you prefer to have in-hand? The .223/5.56 in my opinion.


quote:
Originally posted by Ace
One smart guy--we won't mention who--brought up the idea of keeping the AR, and just adding a 9mm carbine to the pile.
There we have the smarter idea. If you have a 9mm carbine or a .223/5.56 carbine, then you already have a useful tool. If you feel an urge to own the other, don't make it an "instead of" purchase but an "also have" purchase so as to be more prepared.


quote:
Originally posted by Ace
I guess the question is: Is there really anything wrong with moving from a low-caliber rifle to a medium-caliber rifle/carbine? Ace
How about if we clarify the question to moving from a small rifle-caliber carbine, or rifle, to a medium caliber carbine or rifle. If you use a 'low' reference I would think that to be more associated with something like 'low power' or 'low velocity' and not 'small' caliber. There's definitely a difference.

In the case you're referring to, vision and a choice of useful sights, it becomes an individual thing and the shopper or question asker really needs to handle a few options and determine what THEY are most comfortable with. Some of us don't like a V notch, U notch or square notch rear sight. Some prefer a tapered post or squared post front sight or a particular-size front bead sight.

Red dots, different power scopes, and all sorts of considerations are out there and I think the shopper might first want to consider sight options and changes before a more costly weapon or caliber change. Along the way, while handling a variety of long-guns to evaluate different site systems, they just might luck upon an appealing arm in a different caliber than they already have and take advantage of that opportunity to just get another new-to-them firearm.

'840'

Yes, I, too, have my semi-autos, but folks need to credit the serious versatility of a good revolver with a serviceable load.
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Evan
Administrator

34116 Posts

Posted - July 21 2017 :  6:54:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a Kel Tec sub 2000 foldable carbine that uses .40 cal Glock .40 AND a Glock 22 as my primary ccw weapon. The Kel Tec is carried folded in a lap top bag designed for 17" screen lap tops in a boring black case. Holds the gun with a 22 round mag inserted in the gun and 6 15 round .40 mags with DPX in everything I carry.

My AR has a Primary Arms red dot. I am left handed and left eye dominant but it has gotten progressively worse while my right eye is clear and sharp with my bifocals on.

The Kel Tec is my church gun and I will use it fight to my AR in the car if possible. If not, I'll just continue use the KT.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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wolfgang2000
Advanced Member

USA
3742 Posts

Posted - July 29 2017 :  5:58:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pistol caliber carbines seem to be the rage. Especially the AR versions. The problem is they are expensive. There are all sorts of kits to convert your AR into a 9MM carbine. There is even a mag well adapter that uses Glock magazines. Usually the shooter Only has a choice between Glock mags., or colt mags. The Kel-Tec and the Wilson arms offer a little more of a variety.

I got my first carbine in the 90's. It's a Marlin camp. Had it modified to take Glock mags. then put a simple Tasco dot scope on it. It works great. In 2010 I got a Kel-Tec S2K. The folding feature put it into a class by itself. Also the Kel-Tec is the lease expensive of the bunch.

Why have a 9MM carbine? Bottom line they are just a blast to shoot. The ammo is much cheaper than 5.56. The recoil is very mild. In the case of the Kel-Tec it is very light. Older people or those with an infirmity shouldn't have a problem holding it.

Should you get a 9MM carbine? Yes IMO. I suggest you compare prices between the dedicated carbines and the kits.

“The key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a tactical philosophy.” Evan Marshall
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4377 Posts

Posted - July 30 2017 :  08:37:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Carbines are easier to shoot than pistols, and give much improved accuracy potential for most of us.

Plus, as Evan pointed out, it boosts the velocity and power of the round you're shooting; I believe he cited 1600 fps for (I'm assuming) the 140 gr .40S&W DPX, which leaves a 4" pistol barrel at around 1200 fps.

So: more accurate, more powerful, more pleasant and easier to shoot. What's not to like?

And the Sub2000--- which folds to 16", and accepts the mags of your EDC pistol (provided it's a Glock, Beretta, Sig, or M&P)--- as Wolfgang says, is in a class by itself, taking the possibilities to a whole new level: the ability to discretely carry that pistol-caliber carbine (in a laptop bag or gym bag) into places you could only carry a pistol before.

Glock-only versions of the S2K can be had on Gunbroker for under $400 delivered.

Keltec sells adapter kits for $15 that allow you to adapt the Beretta, Sig, and M&P versions to take any of these other mags except Glock mags.

The Glock version of the S2K only takes Glock mags, and can't be adapted to take other mags.

I believe Keltec has now started making only two versions of the S2K: one that takes Glock mags, and a 'universal' version with adapters for Sig, Beretta, M&P.

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on July 30 2017 08:54:24 AM
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Nanuk
Senior Member

USA
813 Posts

Posted - November 13 2017 :  12:31:39 AM  Show Profile  Click to see Nanuk's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Last year I built an 10.5" 5.56 AR pistol to try out the concept. I use a cheek weld on a padded buffer tube and a 25mm RDS. I shot it in local IDPA matches. I liked the concept so well I built a 7.5" 300 BLK upper. I carry it in a yukaleli case until I can afford a law folder, then it will fit in a laptop case. I load it with 110 grn Vmax. It is viable from muzzle to about 150 yds.

"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." Gen. George Patton
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - November 14 2017 :  08:37:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

Didn't SWAT teams move from a 9mm platform (H&K MP5) to .223 (M4) due to the fact that the .223 round provided better 'stopping power' at all ranges?





Actually the big factor was the .223 was safer - lower penetration through standard construction walls even with FMJ bullets - but they probably didn't complain about the gain in effectiveness.

Jim

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