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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - June 17 2017 :  10:16:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was talking with an old vet at the range about the carbine I was shooting.

he managed to get himself into WWII at 16 in time for the Normandy invasion, made it to Korea, and the early days of Vietnam. used the carbine in all 3.

he had an interesting observation.

in forward areas there were plenty of spare rifles from the wounded and dead.

Garands and BARs where available but you never saw M1 carbines laying around.

troops on both sides snatched them up whenever possible.

he saw guys with Garands carrying carbines as extra rifles.

mortar and gun crews that were issued .45s dumped the dead weight and picked up a carbine as fast as they could....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on June 17 2017 10:19:14 AM

Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2937 Posts

Posted - June 17 2017 :  11:08:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It was, and is, a fine little weapon. Only slightly heavier than pistol gear, but infinitely easier to hit with and carrying a lot more rounds. It could even be fired one-handed in extremis.

It was light, easy to carry, and quick to employ. For troops who weren't involved in direct assault, and needed just a PDW, it worked well.

I'd love to have one today in 9mm or 45 ACP (even in a blowback action) if someone could make one reliable, and with double stack mags.


Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - June 17 2017 :  11:43:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the .30 carbine round out performs the 9mm with simular bullet and you can carry 2-3 carbine rounds to 1 round of .45 with flatter trajectory. that and penetration is why combat vets prefered it to a Thompson. sub guns had limited range.

I've noticed talking to vets from WWII folks that criticize it never used it, those that did liked it. I was at a War museum in Nijmegen years ago looking at a carbine in a display case, the guy next to me was a Master Sergeant who participated in Market Garden. he said his carbine was the best street fighting tool he used during the war.

it was the only weapon to my knowledge that the Germans printed an op manual for in German during the war.


"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5045 Posts

Posted - June 17 2017 :  7:33:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm one of those who, in a fit of brain vacancy, traded one off back when I was working for a living--one of those rifles I 'did not' have in the car trunk for a while, when we weren't permitted rifles. Wish I had another one. (There's one at a nearby LGS, a Universal, priced at $600; I just don't have the cash at the moment, and don't know if that's too much or a good deal.)

Chris, take a look at Chiappa, I think they make a close copy of the carbine in 9mm--if I'm remembering right. Seems we sold one some months ago, and the guy said he really liked it. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - June 18 2017 :  08:09:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I once had a job which required a lot of travel in a small team.

It was my privilege to have a couple of retried Army guys, one a CWO and one an E8 as traveling partners. Both veterans of Korea and Vietnam.

The CWO had been a BARman in Korea. He said he always carried an extra long gun even if it had to be a Garand since he wanted to have a weapon easy to maneuver when the BAR was set up on the edge of a fighting hole. He liked the carbine as it was light.

Other veterans I've talked to thought the carbine a bit under-powered so I asked him. He said it worked fine for him: "In once side of the headgear and out the other."

I asked about body shots and he said he never tried it. He said up close he had no faith a body shot with anything short of a .45 or a 30-06 would stop them quick enough - he had use both.

He got bayoneted once by a Nork who materialized inside the company fighting position - that time he had a 1911 and dropped the guy with that - bayonet struck him in the side of the head and skidded off so he just had first aid applied.

Great guy, alas he passed away a few years ago.

My first center fire rifle (age 14) was an M1 Carbine. Also the first cartridge I loaded for and cast bullets. With JHP (mostly Speed 110gr but also the Winchester Factory 110 JSHP) it worked well on woodchucks at 100 or less (and after I got a 4X scope out to 150) - the 130 cast at 1800 and factory ball not so much.

Jim H.


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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - June 18 2017 :  10:48:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
After the war the race was on to develope a light, reasonably powerful infantry weapon like the Sturmgewehr 44, but in many ways the carbine got there first.

there was manpower shortage in both theaters during the war. new recruits were rushed through an accelerated basic training and sent overseas as replacements. most didn't get one minute of range training prior to deployment, it was OJT with a steep learning curve. they usually couldn't utilize the long range capability of the Garand, a 200 yd carbine served well enough.

one of the problems with a handgun was that most troops could do little more than make noise with one past 10 yards, that and it was underpowered, even the good old .45.

John George was tasked during the war with evaluating infantry weapons in the field. he describes the carbine round in Shots Fired in Anger.

"The cartridge was powerful enough to penetrate several thicknesses of helmet, and to perforate the plates of the Japanese bullet proof vests, which would only be dented by .45 auto slugs. It was flat shooting enough to have practical accuracy at more than two hundred yards. It would be interesting to know how many casualties it created during the war. Certainly more than all the pistols and revolvers our military has ever used. "

I was just struck by the old soldiers comment that he never saw spare carbines laying around, I've heard that talk from others....





.

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Uncle Mike
Advanced Member

USA
1604 Posts

Posted - June 18 2017 :  11:19:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

There's one at a nearby LGS, a Universal, priced at $600; I just don't have the cash at the moment, and don't know if that's too much or a good deal.




Hi, Good points from all. Consulting my "Cartridges of the World" I see the factory load MV 110 grain FMJ is 1990fps and the 9mm 115 FMJ is 1160fps. I can attest that the GI load appears to be hotter. I don't have a chronograph. When I shot the GI load through my Ruger Blackhawk the cases would stick in the chamber. This did not happen with factory. The flame would really light up the sky. I realize this is not a scientific test but those are my observations. I guess in my old age I should probably get a cheap chronograph. Just a tip on the Universal I found them and the Nation Ordnance to be unreliable and a comparison of the op rods, commercial vs GI is eye opening. GI carbines are on line around $900 to 1200 but private party sales are still in the $500 range. The M1 Carbine is a good upgrade from a pistol or substitute for a submachine gun. It's not a substitute for a battle rifle. Congressional Medal of Honor recipient Ola Mize made a lie of this previous statement,, regards, Mike

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage"...Thucyides

"War is sweet to those who do not know it."...Erasmus
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - June 18 2017 :  11:48:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
p
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Mike

quote:
Originally posted by Ace

There's one at a nearby LGS, a Universal, priced at $600; I just don't have the cash at the moment, and don't know if that's too much or a good deal.




Hi, Good points from all. Consulting my "Cartridges of the World" I see the factory load MV 110 grain FMJ is 1990fps and the 9mm 115 FMJ is 1160fps. I can attest that the GI load appears to be hotter. I don't have a chronograph. When I shot the GI load through my Ruger Blackhawk the cases would stick in the chamber. This did not happen with factory. The flame would really light up the sky. I realize this is not a scientific test but those are my observations. I guess in my old age I should probably get a cheap chronograph. Just a tip on the Universal I found them and the Nation Ordnance to be unreliable and a comparison of the op rods, commercial vs GI is eye opening. GI carbines are on line around $900 to 1200 but private party sales are still in the $500 range. The M1 Carbine is a good upgrade from a pistol or substitute for a submachine gun. It's not a substitute for a battle rifle. Congressional Medal of Honor recipient Ola Mize made a lie of this previous statement,, regards, Mike



MOH recipient Audie Murphy didn't agree with that line either

chapter 19 "To Hell and Back"

"'Wonder if I could get a carbine. I donít like an M-1 for this woods fighting.'"

I saw a carbine that had been issued to Audie,according to the hand receipt with it,in a carbine collection at a B'ham show. carbines were popular in 3rd Division, sub guns were rare and hard to get.



"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
4989 Posts

Posted - June 18 2017 :  12:24:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just recently watched a Military Channel show on the Marines' super bloody fight for Sugar Loaf Hill on Okinawa. I was struck by the number of carbines in the hands of the front line troops.

Jeff

jle3030
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - June 18 2017 :  3:26:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

I just recently watched a Military Channel show on the Marines' super bloody fight for Sugar Loaf Hill on Okinawa. I was struck by the number of carbines in the hands of the front line troops.

Jeff



there were 6 million made, you are going to see alot of carbines in old film footage.

I've heard that the Marines, in the tradition that all Marines are rifleman, were more prone to issue carbines than handguns to crews and officers once supply caught up with demand.( the Raiders and scouts used carbines too, and were usually first wave)

and as an example, in Pattons 3rd Army, as casualties went up replacements got scarce and everyone became a rifleman....

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - June 19 2017 :  08:41:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
RE the Blackhawk, I had an early one (and foolishly traded it off later) but I still had it when I got my first chronograph.

Factory G.I. ball (I cannot remember now who produced it but maybe WRA?) did indeed come real close to 1900 in the carbine and it it hit 1450 in the Ruger.

I had a hand-load with the Speer 110 "varminter" that got just oer 1900 in the carbine and it came real close to 1500 in the Ruger.

S&W made a 5" revolver in the .30 USC during the war but I don't recall every seeing any out on the market. I have seen a K-frame 5" 32-20 good friend of my Dad had one.

Jim

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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4364 Posts

Posted - June 24 2017 :  03:27:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It strikes me that today, the M1 carbine fills a 'niche' that no other gun fills.

The Garand is competing with any number of more-modern battle rifles that fire what is essentially the same cartridge: the M-14, HK 91, FN-FAL, FN SCAR-17, Galil Ace, the various descendents of the AR-10.

But the M-1 carbine stands alone--- or so it seems to me--- with characteristics that no other long gun can claim: almost as light as the 10-22, not as powerful as the AR or AK, but 'handier' and easier to shoot--- for young people, the elderly, or whoever for whatever reason is 'recoil-conscious'--- but still deadly at self-defense distances.

Jim Cirillo tried it and liked it and recommended it, for close-range encounters....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on June 24 2017 04:06:07 AM
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - June 24 2017 :  11:11:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

It strikes me that today, the M1 carbine fills a 'niche' that no other gun fills.

The Garand is competing with any number of more-modern battle rifles that fire what is essentially the same cartridge: the M-14, HK 91, FN-FAL, FN SCAR-17, Galil Ace, the various descendents of the AR-10.

But the M-1 carbine stands alone--- or so it seems to me--- with characteristics that no other long gun can claim: almost as light as the 10-22, not as powerful as the AR or AK, but 'handier' and easier to shoot--- for young people, the elderly, or whoever for whatever reason is 'recoil-conscious'--- but still deadly at self-defense distances.

Jim Cirillo tried it and liked it and recommended it, for close-range encounters....





the carbine was used in Vietnam beside both the M16 and AK, field surgeons and medics could see little difference between the wounds creatd by the 5.56 and carbine.

same with the folks pulling the trigger. SF advisors that used both claimed the cabine equal to the M16 inside 200 yards.

John Farnam used a carbine in Vietnam, said he never needed to tell someone they'd been shot with one.

the carbine can turn an old Chevy into swiss cheese, generally out did a 5.56 and GI ammo. depending on the yaw affect the 5.56 M855 is spotty through car doors.

the AK round is simular with maybe a slight advantage in penetration but wounding not so clear an advantage over either.

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
4989 Posts

Posted - June 24 2017 :  2:37:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've left my AR on long term loan to my daughter and held on to the M1 carbine. Reason: for fast shooting at close distances it has much the same instinctive feel as the old Daisy BB gun I tried to wear out as a kid. Cheek weld, look down the barrel, front sight on target and hit. All I can see is the sights - but no barrel - when I try that with the AR. Then there's the hold over for the AR's high mounted sights. I just do better at gunfight distance with the carbine. Or lever gun. Or shotgun. Etc.

Jeff

jle3030
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - June 25 2017 :  10:44:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

I've left my AR on long term loan to my daughter and held on to the M1 carbine. Reason: for fast shooting at close distances it has much the same instinctive feel as the old Daisy BB gun I tried to wear out as a kid. Cheek weld, look down the barrel, front sight on target and hit. All I can see is the sights - but no barrel - when I try that with the AR. Then there's the hold over for the AR's high mounted sights. I just do better at gunfight distance with the carbine. Or lever gun. Or shotgun. Etc.

Jeff



Years (and years) ago I gathered up some guys who were rifle shooters (not formal competitors but those who hunted and shot for fun, but some were also LEOs). Two of them were former 101st with a tour or two in RVN under their belt - they knew the M-16 but both preferred more conventional stocked rifles.

We had a short test - like 1 head shot at 25 yards or 2 body shots. We did also shoot at 50 and 100 but I was more interesting in the time it took to get a good hit at 25 were speed matters a bit more.

Not many in the group were familiar with the "High speed low drag" military/SWAT techniques (even the 101st guys). The rifles were iron sighted and consisted of an AR 15 (20"), a Mini 14 and a Carbine.

At 25 the Mini and the Carbine were noticeably faster and more accurate (probably due to a good cheek weld).

At 50 and 100 it was pretty much a draw.

I think it might have been different if everyone had started form the low ready but back then we did not think much about it.

BTW - average time for the Mini and the carbine for a head shot at 25 yards was under 1.5 seconds from the group, including reaction time starting with the safety on (I did allow the mini shooters to start with their finger in the trigger guard which I would not even consider today).

Jim H.

I've done similar tests with other folks and plugged in lever action rifles, pump action rifles and shotgun and some with SMGs.

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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5045 Posts

Posted - June 25 2017 :  2:50:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I 'grew up' with the M16/AR platform--which means that's what they gave me in my really short military time--and like the platform generally. As a baby soldier, it was not difficult to hit the Army target out to 350 (I think) yards--though I'll admit a few of the targets probably fell when I'd hit the ground in front and pebbles would fly up and hit the target. But those shots were not at any speed, just looking through the peep and putting the front post on the head of the silhouette. When time came to 'hurry up and hit', I had/have a very tough time getting focused on the front sight through the peep in time to shoot them before they would have gotten me. I don't like peeps for quick shooting. Wudda been easier, I think, if they'd let me file the peep into a notch--that's what I shot from the time I was a child.
Recently discovered I'm not really fond of a red-dot sight on an AR, even for 'hurry up' shots. Much more comfortable with a low-x scope. I think it's mostly because that's what I'm decades-worth more familiar with. When/if I put a BUIS on the AR, it will be one of those with the v-notch instead of a peep, if I can find one again. If I have to do a peep, the hole will be drilled out to more of a big ghost ring than a little peep. If anybody doesn't like it, I just won't let them borrow my gun.
Then again, I've been considering switching from an AR to a little carbine; all the good stuff we're talking about them here almost has me convinced. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - June 25 2017 :  5:40:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
it may not be "THE" end of the world rifle, but a bunch of folks carrying one were in an end of world environment and came out the other side.

it was and is a military grade fighting carbine......

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - June 26 2017 :  07:30:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ace, the vast majority of the modern ARs have the 0-200 sight as a very large ghost ring and the "L" (long range) sight as the smaller standard sized aperture (it is also slightly higher to make for quick compensation for longer range).

Pretty good system. The only challenges I see with the current system is that sight offset causes a serious discrepancy between Point of Aim and Point of Impact at 5 to 10 yards if you are trying to shoot over the head of a hostage or make a head shot. Or, you are shooting around or over cover (the muzzle is 2.6" below the sight line).

Both can be trained for.

Jim

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Edited by - Jim Higginbotham on June 26 2017 07:31:14 AM
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
4989 Posts

Posted - June 26 2017 :  08:21:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I once attended an instructor/dealer appreciation day fun shoot at John Benner's TDI. Bring what you want to shoot. Any legal gun welcome. Class III, bring your paperwork. Several brought their high speed low drag tricked out rifles. Fastest first shot hits at fifteen yards were with a Rossi 1866 "Yellow Boy" replica levergun.

"Gunfight distance is gunfight distance regardless of the weapon deployed."

"It's the Indian, not the arrow."

Up close and personal, ergonomics trump accessories.

Jeff

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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - June 26 2017 :  08:33:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

I once attended an instructor/dealer appreciation day fun shoot at John Benner's TDI. Bring what you want to shoot. Any legal gun welcome. Class III, bring your paperwork. Several brought their high speed low drag tricked out rifles. Fastest first shot hits at fifteen yards were with a Rossi 1866 "Yellow Boy" replica levergun.

"Gunfight distance is gunfight distance regardless of the weapon deployed."

"It's the Indian, not the arrow."

Up close and personal, ergonomics trump accessories.

Jeff



good point...

my fastest/accurate first shot is probably my sxs bird gun.

time to do some comparison on the range.

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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retfed89
Advanced Member

USA
1638 Posts

Posted - June 26 2017 :  11:34:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maine Trooper I worked with was a Vietnam vet, Marines, I think como guy, as was issued a 1911, kept trying to get some kind of rifle no luck. He said he did get one when the jeep he was in passed a group of RVN troops who had carbines. He simply grabbed one from an RVN and told the driver to step on it! He said the little guy hung on until speed built up. Said he kept it till he was sent home. Knowing my friend I believe the story. He still liked Carbines.
Was in NGUS in high school, AA battery, the carbine was the issue weapon. Qualified with it several times. I'd probably swap an AR for one just to have it. Really liked shooting it. Retfed

Edited by - retfed89 on June 26 2017 11:36:08 AM
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carlojohn90
Junior Member

227 Posts

Posted - June 26 2017 :  9:28:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just picked up a new AO M1 carbine paratrooper. I've only put 150 rounds through it, but so far, so good. I'm faster at 25 yards with than the M4. My only dislike is are the small apertures on the front sight. If anybody knows of a rear sight with a larger aperture, and possible a higher visibility front sight, please let me know.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4364 Posts

Posted - June 26 2017 :  9:54:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kensight makes a reproduction of the second-generation rear sight that replaced the L-shaped flip-up first-version rear sight on M1 carbines midway through WW II. Unlike the flip-up, it's adjustable for both windage and elevation. Brownells and Midway both stock it, $27.

I don't see why you--- or your gunsmith--- couldn't drill out the aperature on it to make it bigger.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on June 26 2017 10:05:25 PM
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Uncle Mike
Advanced Member

USA
1604 Posts

Posted - June 26 2017 :  10:36:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi, just a little history. When the original sights were put on the M1 Carbine they were sighted in at the factory. They drifted in the rear flip sight and cut down the front sight . When they replace the rear sight with the better adjustable rear sight they sometimes didn't replace the front sight if needed. I know this because many carbines shoot high due to a too short front sight. LittleBill is giving good advice. I put a flashlight on mine and a white stripe on the front post; it glows very brite, regards, Mike

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage"...Thucyides

"War is sweet to those who do not know it."...Erasmus
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - June 27 2017 :  01:02:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by carlojohn90

I just picked up a new AO M1 carbine paratrooper. I've only put 150 rounds through it, but so far, so good. I'm faster at 25 yards with than the M4. My only dislike is are the small apertures on the front sight. If anybody knows of a rear sight with a larger aperture, and possible a higher visibility front sight, please let me know.



during the War the L shaped sight carbine was originally issued with a too tall front sight that was filed down to zero (calibrate) the rear sight for the individual soldier at unit level.

later in the War those carbines were rebuilt with the adjustable rear sight, typically those carbines then shot high unless a taller front sight was installed and the calibration process repeated.

refer to the carbine FM 23-7 for the procedure

the AO L sight carbine is sold with a too tall front sight like the originals and should be filed to calibrate the rear sight for the correct zero. if however the adjustable rear sight will be installed leave the front post as is and file to calibratethat sight once installed.

AO sells a replica adjustable rear that can be installed on their carbine

the trick to using the carbine inside 25 yards is to look over the rear sight, sight down the barrel, bracket the target with the front sight only much like a bead sighted shotgun. the carbine shoots flat enough at that range to get hits on target.

for a high viz front sight try the old bright orange paint

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4364 Posts

Posted - June 27 2017 :  01:36:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Mike

Hi, just a little history. When the original sights were put on the M1 Carbine they were sighted in at the factory. They drifted in the rear flip sight and cut down the front sight . When they replace the rear sight with the better adjustable rear sight they sometimes didn't replace the front sight if needed. I know this because many carbines shoot high due to a too short front sight. LittleBill is giving good advice. I put a flashlight on mine and a white stripe on the front post; it glows very brite, regards, Mike


Speaking of the factory sight-in: according to the website uscarbinecal30.com, "National Postal Meter's test fire range was built by raising the floor of the carbine manufacturing plant three feet above the building's concrete floor and literally shooting under the feet of the production line."

And speaking of history: the story of how 9 different manufacturers, under the guidance of the U.S. Army Ordnance Dept, collaborated to take Winchester's design as tweaked by Inland, and build more than 6 million Carbines in 38 months, is a tale in itself: American industry and Gov't at its finest.

Would we be capable of pulling off something like that today?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on June 27 2017 02:10:08 AM
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