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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - June 07 2017 :  07:50:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Since I'm now almost fully retired...almost...I don't purchase many guns.

However a couple of weeks ago I handled an M&P 2.0 in a shop and I liked it compared to my older M&P.

It had a decent trigger, it was really "grippy" and the thumb safety (which for me is a must on a pistol with a short non DA pull).

So yesterday while out with a good friend and also retired deputy we dropped into my favorite gun shop and they had a brand new .45 M&P with a safety to $425 out the door so it followed me home.

I got home and did 10 trigger pulls on the Lyman digital gauge and the trigger averaged 3 lbs 15 ounces!

I'll shoot it today to make sure it shoots where it looks and it functions.

I doubt I'll ever carry it as the other one I had is just too fat as is this one but it will make a nice house gun or one to show and tell in classes.

I handled the new Beretta Glock knockoff - except for those huge "fins" on the slide it seems like a nifty gun and it felt well and also had a decent trigger. They had frame kits there for $49 but the one I handled was just fine.

I also found a Sig 320 with a safety. Alas it was a 9mm and a compact so I would have had to spend more than the $550 it cost to get it in a longer slide and frame and bigger caliber but it did feel good and also has a nice trigger.

Just ramblin'

Jim H.

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Evan
Administrator

34114 Posts

Posted - June 07 2017 :  12:26:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a SIG P250 with both .40 and .357 SIG barrels and a pile of SIG mags. I had a P320 and tried to like but did not. I'm currently carrying a Glock 22 police trade in that has ultra bright night sights on it and is compatible with the mags that fit my Kel Tec Sub 2000 which I horse traded for. Detroit has shredded my pension to the point it barely covers my prescription meds.

After spending an additional $270 I found in an old shoe box or under a rock, the KT is what it should have been in the first place. It is not completely sighted in,but it is 100% reliable with Cor Bon .40 DPX and folds and fits in a lap top bag I got at Amazon for $18. I carry a mini I pad in the front compartment so whether I'm at Barnes&Noble or church the appearance of the I pad eliminates all concern what that old geezer might have in the bag.

I keep getting the feeling that the Devil is on his way and unprecedented violence is close at hand.

The real purpose for the KT? to get to the AR in my car. If they steal the AR they have to find a bolt for it as its kept separate from it elsewhere in the vehicle.

The P250? Carried as a second gun to the Glock 22 and the AR has a Magpul 60 round drum loaded it woth a Magpul 30 rounder on a mag holder on the stock. Reloads? You could probably order lunch in the time iit would take me to reload the AR

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Barnacle Bill
Advanced Member

USA
1253 Posts

Posted - June 07 2017 :  12:54:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It seems like the industry is reinventing the wheel, but I think they are just giving consumers what they think they want.

Everybody wants a "good" trigger, which is to say "a short non DA pull". So they lower the trigger pull until they have what is functionally (never mind the mechanism under the hood) a single action. Then they put a manual safety on it, because duh a single action needs one. So, it seems like depending on caliber we're back to M1911's & BHP's, only with plastic frames and strikers (and I don't really get the popularity of the latter).

Edited by - Barnacle Bill on June 07 2017 12:55:04 PM
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Uncle Mike
Advanced Member

USA
1603 Posts

Posted - June 07 2017 :  1:01:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Jim, I looked up "gat" in the dictionary and it said look under "roscoe". Good luck with the new pistol you made me smile, regards, Mike

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage"...Thucyides

"War is sweet to those who do not know it."...Erasmus
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - June 08 2017 :  07:39:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just wanted to illustrate that I embrace diversity - well at least in guns

Jim

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heavyweight
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - June 08 2017 :  08:52:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barnacle Bill

It seems like the industry is reinventing the wheel, but I think they are just giving consumers what they think they want.

Everybody wants a "good" trigger, which is to say "a short non DA pull". So they lower the trigger pull until they have what is functionally (never mind the mechanism under the hood) a single action. Then they put a manual safety on it, because duh a single action needs one. So, it seems like depending on caliber we're back to M1911's & BHP's, only with plastic frames and strikers (and I don't really get the popularity of the latter).


Having been a LEO for 39 years, and still active, I've come to appreciate the reduction in weight that plastic offers me. I even carry alloy cuffs and have reduced the weight of my gear over the years. At the end of a shift I can tell the difference.

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Badge
Advanced Member

USA
1648 Posts

Posted - June 08 2017 :  09:55:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know I'm gettin' old as I actually knew what a " Gat ", was. Same with " Heater " and " Roscoe ". Holy Cow,... where did the time go.

MSS
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Malcolm
Advanced Member

USA
4008 Posts

Posted - June 08 2017 :  6:14:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know of several working coppers younger than my own adult children, that refer to a suspect's handgun as a "roscoe", or a "gat".
When I started out in 1977, the old timers who did use those descriptors, were very quick to not allow we young officers to use the appproved "salty terms", until THEY approved of us....which took a very long time.

"The measure of a man's character, is how he treats someone who can do nothing for him." (unknown)
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - June 09 2017 :  08:00:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Badge

I know I'm gettin' old as I actually knew what a " Gat ", was. Same with " Heater " and " Roscoe ". Holy Cow,... where did the time go.



I recently read Stephen Hunter's new book "G-man" - great fun. I don't think he mentioned the terms in there but I guess I was channeling 1934 subconsciously

BTW the book and it's plot is fictitious but he has some good vignettes of real law men in it.

Jim

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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4363 Posts

Posted - June 09 2017 :  08:36:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There's a good online moniker: 'Roscoe Gat'


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on June 09 2017 08:36:21 AM
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Barnacle Bill
Advanced Member

USA
1253 Posts

Posted - June 09 2017 :  09:26:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by heavyweight
Having been a LEO for 39 years, and still active, I've come to appreciate the reduction in weight that plastic offers me. I even carry alloy cuffs and have reduced the weight of my gear over the years. At the end of a shift I can tell the difference.



Oh I totally get the weight part and the plastic frame solution. My head-scratching is over why the market seems to view having a striker instead of a hammer & firing pin as a plus (vs just another way to skin the cat).
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - June 09 2017 :  09:40:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barnacle Bill

quote:
Originally posted by heavyweight
Having been a LEO for 39 years, and still active, I've come to appreciate the reduction in weight that plastic offers me. I even carry alloy cuffs and have reduced the weight of my gear over the years. At the end of a shift I can tell the difference.



Oh I totally get the weight part and the plastic frame solution. My head-scratching is over why the market seems to view having a striker instead of a hammer & firing pin as a plus (vs just another way to skin the cat).



I don't get the weight part - just weighed my M&P vs. my 1911. The M&P weighs 2 lbs 6 ounces and the 1911 weighs 2 lbs 13 ounces (digital postal scale).

That is of course when both are loaded...I don't carry my guns empty The Glock is even closer, I think, as it carries more bullets than the M&P.

Once upon a time I weighed my duty belt and I think it came to 11 lbs - I'm not going to notice 7 ounces.

OTOH if I did I might carry my air weight .22 Kit Gun (with the aluminum cylinder) (not really just kidding - just for me personally I would not carry a smaller caliber if it did weigh 2 lbs less).

I should point out thought that I know some folks who have back problems or knee problems and their choice is go lighter or go unarmed and I sure do feel for them...we each have to work out our own salvation.

Jim H.

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Edited by - Jim Higginbotham on June 09 2017 09:42:00 AM
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5045 Posts

Posted - June 09 2017 :  09:55:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On that weight/size issue, I get a kick out of guys who come into the store looking for something 'smaller'. Something like 'I've been carrying this Glock 19 (for example), and it's just too big and bulky to hide.' I'm happy to show them other options---while I'm standing there wearing a .44 GP100, a Springfield XD, a spare mag, a Stinger flashlight, and two .44 Speed Strips in a cell phone case---all under my shoot-me-first vest at work, under a pull-over semi-dress shirt at church and social events. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - June 09 2017 :  11:15:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jim got me wondering...

I weighed my Range Officer 1911 45.9oz (loaded)

G34 32.83oz (loaded)

that's 13.07oz or about 2 more loaded 17 round magazines.

I might go there.

I don't think a striker fired gun is an improvement by the way

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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Pat Taylor
Starting Member

USA
40 Posts

Posted - June 10 2017 :  01:48:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Watched a video a while back of one of the current X-mil trainers currently teaching. Real combat handguns have strikers and not hammers according to him.

I have had one round fail to fire in my M&P .40 , hit it twice in the M&P and nothing. STI 1911 .40 fired it first hit.

I don't mind a striker fired gun but like mentioned I do not see it as an improvement.
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - June 10 2017 :  08:21:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All one has to do to compare is take a regular wooden pencil with an eraser and put it down the barrel *do make sure it is clear!*, point the gun skyward and press the trigger.

The difference between most SA hammer guns and almost all striker fired guns is phenomenal.

DA autos and revolvers are sort of in between.

The real sticking point though is that nearly all striker fired guns do not have much in the way of firing pin travel and if you get a bunch of ammo that has a healthy crimp or short case length that extra few thousandths of an inch is enough to prevent the round from firing.

Add to that some are sensitive to lube migrating into the striker channel - a hammer gun does not really care where you put the lube.

There is a reason JMB got away from striker guns (he did try on the French contract for the 9mm but he ditched that one in favor of the hammer).

No question the striker fired guns work most of the time - but they are more dependent on perfect ammo. I found that even revolvers are more dependent on primer seating depth than hammer type autos when I finally got one in .45 ACP. I had to load revolver ammo much more carefully.

Just Ramblin'

Jim H.

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Badge
Advanced Member

USA
1648 Posts

Posted - June 10 2017 :  08:48:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jim,
Many years ago I had some really unpleasant day's with my back. Not that it's any better now but I switched off to a Sig 225 with 4 Magazines as well as the breakaway suspenders to help ease that pain a bit. I too like a 1911 as it is such a natural pointer but the weight is noticeable for me at least.

MSS
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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - June 10 2017 :  08:58:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
1911s have weight, carry one banging against your leg in an old leather GI flap holster for a couple months.....hateful setup

I like a hammer fired gun for safety, you get that visual cue when you see the hammer back or down

when you reholster put your thumb on the hammer and feel for movement on either an SA or DA. I miss that on striker fired guns

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."
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fsilber
Senior Member

USA
511 Posts

Posted - June 10 2017 :  7:38:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I imagine that striker-fired guns use fewer parts and are cheaper and easier to build.

The only advantage I can see is that you can get a lower bore axis for less muzzle-flip. However, the bore axis on some striker-fired guns is not particularly low (e.g. the Sig Sauer), which makes me wonder what is the point.
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revjen45
Advanced Member

2234 Posts

Posted - June 11 2017 :  10:35:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Badge

I know I'm gettin' old as I actually knew what a " Gat ", was. Same with " Heater " and " Roscoe ". Holy Cow,... where did the time go.


So, am I the only one who refers to my sidearm as a "piece?"

Better to perish in the struggle for freedom than live to see defeat.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2936 Posts

Posted - June 11 2017 :  11:44:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If ya wanna be cool with the street crew ya gotta call it a 'burner'

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Barnacle Bill
Advanced Member

USA
1253 Posts

Posted - June 12 2017 :  10:28:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

All one has to do to compare is take a regular wooden pencil with an eraser and put it down the barrel *do make sure it is clear!*, point the gun skyward and press the trigger.

The difference between most SA hammer guns and almost all striker fired guns is phenomenal.

DA autos and revolvers are sort of in between.

The real sticking point though is that nearly all striker fired guns do not have much in the way of firing pin travel and if you get a bunch of ammo that has a healthy crimp or short case length that extra few thousandths of an inch is enough to prevent the round from firing.

Add to that some are sensitive to lube migrating into the striker channel - a hammer gun does not really care where you put the lube.

There is a reason JMB got away from striker guns (he did try on the French contract for the 9mm but he ditched that one in favor of the hammer).

No question the striker fired guns work most of the time - but they are more dependent on perfect ammo. I found that even revolvers are more dependent on primer seating depth than hammer type autos when I finally got one in .45 ACP. I had to load revolver ammo much more carefully.

Just Ramblin'

Jim H.




Very interesting stuff...

RE revolvers, I wonder if there is a difference between the new style with a firing pin vs the old school ones with the firing pin on the hammer itself?
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Barnacle Bill
Advanced Member

USA
1253 Posts

Posted - June 12 2017 :  10:32:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gw

1911s have weight, carry one banging against your leg in an old leather GI flap holster for a couple months.....hateful setup



I only ever did that for a day, when the National Guard unit that I did a one year trial enlistment in was activated to provide security for an event. One day was enough.


quote:
Originally posted by gw

when you reholster put your thumb on the hammer and feel for movement on either an SA or DA. I miss that on striker fired guns



I like that, too.

Edited by - Barnacle Bill on June 12 2017 10:32:37 AM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - June 13 2017 :  08:04:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barnacle Bill

Very interesting stuff...

RE revolvers, I wonder if there is a difference between the new style with a firing pin vs the old school ones with the firing pin on the hammer itself?



I do think there is a difference. While I sorta like the traditional S&W "hammer nose" system I do think the firing pin in the frame hit the primer with more authority and also goes slightly deeper.

Jim

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gw
Advanced Member

3983 Posts

Posted - June 13 2017 :  09:25:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by Barnacle Bill

Very interesting stuff...

RE revolvers, I wonder if there is a difference between the new style with a firing pin vs the old school ones with the firing pin on the hammer itself?



I do think there is a difference. While I sorta like the traditional S&W "hammer nose" system I do think the firing pin in the frame hit the primer with more authority and also goes slightly deeper.

Jim



S&W has used frame mounted firing pins since at least the first .22 rimfire K-frame with perfect results as far as ignition. my 50s K-22 works fine.

Denny Reichard is a well respected S&W smith, he has said the frame mounted pin 629 .44 is the strongest, most durable N-frame magnums made, MIM parts and all.

Colt used the "unbreakable" frame mounted pin on the Python from the beginning.

the reason S&W went to frame mounted pins..... less hand fitting. to keep the hammer mounted pin from peening the firing pin hole requires careful hand fitting, frame mounted pins drops into place.

as for reliability in the new guns. S&W has shipped some guns with too short pins in an attempt to make the guns drop safe. seems to be especially true in the frame mounted 625 .45ACP. light strikes have always been problematic with the use of moon clips.

one advantage for the frame mounted pin is you can lighten trigger pull and maintain reliability by using a longer pin.

one disadvantage of the frame mounted pin is dry fire. dry fire without snap caps can bend the retaining pin.

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..."

Edited by - gw on June 13 2017 09:37:15 AM
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Barnacle Bill
Advanced Member

USA
1253 Posts

Posted - June 13 2017 :  10:25:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by Barnacle Bill

Very interesting stuff...

RE revolvers, I wonder if there is a difference between the new style with a firing pin vs the old school ones with the firing pin on the hammer itself?



I do think there is a difference. While I sorta like the traditional S&W "hammer nose" system I do think the firing pin in the frame hit the primer with more authority and also goes slightly deeper.

Jim



Interesting... I had avoided the new style more out of "if it isn't broken don't fix it", but if it actually improves ignition perhaps it is a change to be embraced. The M66 is back in production and I'm tempted by the 2.75" barrel model. However, there is still that pesky lock...
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