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LittleBill
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3876 Posts

Posted - May 14 2017 :  09:48:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In my search for 9mm DPX--- 115 gr for my P226 & P229, 95 gr for my P938--- I discovered that there's none anywhere, Ammoseek comes up blank for both.

But, the Buffalo Bore loadings of the Barnes all-copper bullet--- the +P+ 95 gr Barnes TAC-XP Hollow Point at 1500 fps, and the 115 gr + P+ version at 1400 fps--- are available.

Both are 150 fps faster than their + P Corbon 'cousins'.

Besides the extra wear and tear on my pistols if I were to shoot them a lot; any reason not to go with these?

Thanks

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 14 2017 10:24:24 AM

LittleBill
Advanced Member

3876 Posts

Posted - May 14 2017 :  10:29:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm thinking it might be interesting to see how it would work to use the .357 Sig recoil spring with the 9mm barrel in the 226 and 229 when shooting these +P+ rounds, as they're approaching .357 Sig energy levels....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 14 2017 10:29:48 AM
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Evan
Administrator

33981 Posts

Posted - May 14 2017 :  8:30:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cor Bon is a member of SAAMI and there is no SAAMI spec for +p+

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Michael Shovel
Starting Member

USA
40 Posts

Posted - May 15 2017 :  06:22:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We developed the whole defensive line of DPX ammunition for optimal performance in soft tissue. SCHP projectiles running faster than Corbon's advertised velocity will give penetration in excess of 18" and recovered diameters will be low due to the petals folding back along the shaft of the projectile.

Mike Shovel
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

3876 Posts

Posted - May 15 2017 :  06:58:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, gents.

Maybe that's why they're not selling like hotcakes, while Corbon is....

LB

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

3876 Posts

Posted - May 15 2017 :  08:57:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So... maybe carry a spare mag of the BB, in case I encounter a 450-pound Samoan wearing a leather jacket...?


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
4862 Posts

Posted - May 15 2017 :  09:55:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Or learn to speak Samoan, and call him 'sir'? Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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Barnacle Bill
Advanced Member

USA
1253 Posts

Posted - May 15 2017 :  09:57:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My understanding was that Corbon is rolling their own copper bullets for DPX now, vs buying them from Barnes.

I have in the past contacted Barnes about the expansion threshold for some particular bullet of theirs and received a prompt answer, so if I was interested in Buffalo's +P+ loading I'd probably ask Barnes about it (not directly because they probably wouldn't want to bad mouth a commercial customer, just what range of velocities it is designed for).
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LittleBill
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3876 Posts

Posted - May 15 2017 :  3:43:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good idea!

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

3876 Posts

Posted - May 15 2017 :  3:45:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Or learn to speak Samoan, and call him 'sir'? Ace


With my luck, I'd mess up the pronunciation and end up calling him
'cutie pie'....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 15 2017 5:54:50 PM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

3876 Posts

Posted - May 15 2017 :  7:34:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barnacle Bill

My understanding was that Corbon is rolling their own copper bullets for DPX now, vs buying them from Barnes.

I have in the past contacted Barnes about the expansion threshold for some particular bullet of theirs and received a prompt answer, so if I was interested in Buffalo's +P+ loading I'd probably ask Barnes about it (not directly because they probably wouldn't want to bad mouth a commercial customer, just what range of velocities it is designed for).


Bill, you were right, the Barnes CS guy got right back to me.

He told me that in their water tank tests, the 115 gr 9mm TAC-XP bullet (the one that BB loads) begins to expand--- petals open to 45 degrees--- at around 850 fps. It fully expands--- petals at 90 degrees--- around 950 fps. At around 1300 fps, the petals were folded completely back against the core.

I don't know how performance in the water tank correlates with performance in flesh and bone.... ?

Anybody who does, please feel free to chime in.

But I notice that Corbon's 115 gr +P DPX leaves the muzzle at 1250 fps....



"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 15 2017 8:19:51 PM
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Barnacle Bill
Advanced Member

USA
1253 Posts

Posted - May 16 2017 :  11:01:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by Barnacle Bill

My understanding was that Corbon is rolling their own copper bullets for DPX now, vs buying them from Barnes.

I have in the past contacted Barnes about the expansion threshold for some particular bullet of theirs and received a prompt answer, so if I was interested in Buffalo's +P+ loading I'd probably ask Barnes about it (not directly because they probably wouldn't want to bad mouth a commercial customer, just what range of velocities it is designed for).


Bill, you were right, the Barnes CS guy got right back to me.

He told me that in their water tank tests, the 115 gr 9mm TAC-XP bullet (the one that BB loads) begins to expand--- petals open to 45 degrees--- at around 850 fps. It fully expands--- petals at 90 degrees--- around 950 fps. At around 1300 fps, the petals were folded completely back against the core.

I don't know how performance in the water tank correlates with performance in flesh and bone.... ?

Anybody who does, please feel free to chime in.

But I notice that Corbon's 115 gr +P DPX leaves the muzzle at 1250 fps....




My impression is that water exaggerates the effect that you'd see in ballistic gel, with the latter designed to mimic human flesh. However, the folks on here who have shot jello might be better sources on that (I have not).
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Evan
Administrator

33981 Posts

Posted - May 16 2017 :  12:28:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gello is a homogeneous substance but the human body is not. I've been a Morgue Monsters for decades but never spent 15 minutes as a Gello Junkie.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9255 Posts

Posted - May 17 2017 :  09:27:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill;

This might be merely academic but 10% gel is tested to show similarity with pig muscle (specifically the ham of a anesthetized shoat).

It is somewhat useful for comparing one bullet to another in that material.

Oddly enough I've shot a bunch of critters with the bullet used in that test (Speer 124 JSP) - it expanded to something like .5" in the pig - I've never had it expand in anything - even though I was pushing it 100 fps faster. At least none of them I've recovered have expanded, most went through and were not recovered and showed no larger exit than entrance.

FWIW, the several MDs I've talked to think pig (especially domestic pig) muscle might be similar enough to human muscle to be useful - but it does not represent lung, liver, or other thoracic cavity tissue other than possibly the heart they say.

Shooting gelatin is not worthless I think but it has to be balanced against what real world info we can gather (recognizing that the real world is going to give a wide variety of results).

A bit off topic but there is a good book out there which gives formulation for predicting almost exactly what a bullet will do in gelatin by shooting it in water - since the viscosity and other factors are a known for both. Complex formula but it appears to work.

I think the book is called "Quantitative Ammunition Selection" and it does address that a homogeneous material has limitations.

It is essentially meant to save police departments money in ammo testing.

I don't have many answers, just a lot of questions.

Jim H.


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LittleBill
Advanced Member

3876 Posts

Posted - May 17 2017 :  5:34:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Jim.

I get it that the most helpful use of any 'homogenous' medium like water or ballistic gel is in comparing one bullet's performance to another bullet in that same medium: that no artificial homogenous medium can be counted on to duplicate (or even reliably approximate) performance in the human body, with it's various layers of bone, sinew, fat, organ, and muscle, which each shot will 'encounter' in a slightly (or radically) different fashion.

I see why ammo makers would like water as a test medium: complete consistency from test to test, easy to recover the bullet.

My question in interpreting the water results the Buffalo Bore CS guy supplied me with is: how does expansion in water usually compare to results in ballistic gel? Is it generally the case that expansion for a given bullet at a given velocity in water will be more pronounced than the same bullet travelling at the same velocity in gel?

I ask this because the water results he gave--- full expansion at 950 fps, 'over-expansion' (petals folded completely back against the core) at 1300 fps--- would seem to indicate that the bullet is being over-driven at the factory muzzle velocity of 1400 fps.

But that conclusion wouldn't hold if expansion in water is exaggerated compared to expansion in flesh.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 17 2017 6:40:27 PM
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Evan
Administrator

33981 Posts

Posted - May 17 2017 :  5:44:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The problem with gelatin is that you end up with bullets being compared with bullets also shot into a non tissue simulant. So what have you really got?

"Experts" tell us all sort of nonsense. They tell us that light and fast bullets routinely under penetrates in gelatin. Yet, I've personally attended autopsies where they penetrated to 17" in human beings.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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LittleBill
Advanced Member

3876 Posts

Posted - May 17 2017 :  5:53:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Got it. All you really know from that is how the two bullets compare in an artificial medium where every shot is the same: which real-world shootings never are.

Which is why a survey of real-world results in real shootings provides the only really 'definitive' results. And even there, you need a large-enough sample size to draw any valid conclusions.

That's why for decades now, I've been choosing my carry ammo based on your findings.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 17 2017 6:00:48 PM
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Evan
Administrator

33981 Posts

Posted - May 18 2017 :  1:13:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not trying to push my approach, but I'm deeply concerned about good people and they ought to have the best info available. We shot over a ton of gelatin and frankly I thought the most valuable part of all that was to get together and enjoy each others company.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2757 Posts

Posted - May 18 2017 :  1:49:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For self-defense handgun ammo I am not overly impressed with gel or other 'media tests'. I am, however, a BIG Fan of those loads carried by LE agencies when said agency reports that that are 'very satisfied' with their OIS results.

This may sound cruel...but it's not meant to be... it's simply a statement of fact - the 'average' LEO is not a gun person, and not a particularly good shot. If the ammo is working for them, I can figure it will work for me. That's why I'm a fan of Gold Dot and HST+P... it has a proven track record.

I'd rather not over-think the process, or waste brain cells dithering about an inch or two of gel penetration. I'll use what has proven to work in the Real World.

I guess I'm rambling like Jim does .

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Dov
Advanced Member

USA
2613 Posts

Posted - May 18 2017 :  5:15:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

For self-defense handgun ammo I am not overly impressed with gel or other 'media tests'. I am, however, a BIG Fan of those loads carried by LE agencies when said agency reports that that are 'very satisfied' with their OIS results.

This may sound cruel...but it's not meant to be... it's simply a statement of fact - the 'average' LEO is not a gun person, and not a particularly good shot. If the ammo is working for them, I can figure it will work for me. That's why I'm a fan of Gold Dot and HST+P... it has a proven track record.

I'd rather not over-think the process, or waste brain cells dithering about an inch or two of gel penetration. I'll use what has proven to work in the Real World.

I guess I'm rambling like Jim does .



In addition to the ammo's performance in typical LEO's hands, I think performance of the launch platform (pistol/revolver/shotgun/carbine) is also worth looking at for non shooting enthusiasts.

If particular gun is problematic in LEO use it probably would be for average home defense or CCW user.

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LittleBill
Advanced Member

3876 Posts

Posted - May 19 2017 :  06:59:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

For self-defense handgun ammo I am not overly impressed with gel or other 'media tests'. I am, however, a BIG Fan of those loads carried by LE agencies when said agency reports that that are 'very satisfied' with their OIS results.

This may sound cruel...but it's not meant to be... it's simply a statement of fact - the 'average' LEO is not a gun person, and not a particularly good shot. If the ammo is working for them, I can figure it will work for me. That's why I'm a fan of Gold Dot and HST+P... it has a proven track record.

I'd rather not over-think the process, or waste brain cells dithering about an inch or two of gel penetration. I'll use what has proven to work in the Real World.

I guess I'm rambling like Jim does .


So.... what about 'reversing' the process?

Rather than using gel results to try and figure out how good a particular load might be in the Real World.... how about taking the already street-proven loads (like the Gold Dot and HST +P), shoot them in gel, then use those results to show how a load already known to work in the Real World performs in an artificial medium?

Then use that as your 'standard' to gauge the gel performance of new, untested-in-the-street loads? Is that maybe the best gauge available for evaluating a newly-released load, until it accumulates enough of a track record to prove itself (or not) in the Real World?

I realize that won't tell us all we need to know about the real-world performance of a new load--- only street results can provide the 'final say'. But wouldn't it tell us something useful? Especially if it differs radically from the gel performance of loads that are proven?


If you and Jim are just rambling, then I'm just toddling....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 19 2017 07:35:18 AM
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9255 Posts

Posted - May 19 2017 :  08:12:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

For self-defense handgun ammo I am not overly impressed with gel or other 'media tests'. I am, however, a BIG Fan of those loads carried by LE agencies when said agency reports that that are 'very satisfied' with their OIS results.

This may sound cruel...but it's not meant to be... it's simply a statement of fact - the 'average' LEO is not a gun person, and not a particularly good shot. If the ammo is working for them, I can figure it will work for me. That's why I'm a fan of Gold Dot and HST+P... it has a proven track record.

I'd rather not over-think the process, or waste brain cells dithering about an inch or two of gel penetration. I'll use what has proven to work in the Real World.

I guess I'm rambling like Jim does .



No sir, not the same as your ramblings make sense :-)

OTOH, I also know that no agency shoots enough people to actually know what works - more importantly they don't know *why* it worked.

The first thing we have to "cull" from such findings would be shots that could not be expected to work, like hits to the fat roll with any caliber, including rifles.

The next thing would be to cull hits to people who are predisposed to fold at the first shot (which may be roughly 90% of people generally - it may be a smaller % of folks the police are dealing with of course or they would not be dealing with them - I have no idea what the real figure is). The thing is a .22 would be fine for whatever that % would be.

What I look at is multiple good hit failures that sort of takes care of the folks that faint at the sight of a gun or getting shot "a little bit" - but it is certainly not scientific nor definitive and I regard it only as a "clue" - it certainly does not rise to the level of "study".

That is NOT a criticism of any other approach - everyone has to work out their own salvation, even when it comes to our assessment of bullets.

The thing is I want bullets that will work on Michael Platt, not just Pee Wee Herman - and I don't know how many Pee Wees we are seeing when an agency reports what "works" for them.

Onward!

Jim H.


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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
4862 Posts

Posted - May 19 2017 :  10:02:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My country boy reasoning says that if Evan's results, with a buncha (technical term) shootings shows 85%+ with a particular load, most likely it will be 'adequate' for social work. If it looks cool in Jello, that's just gravy.
If a new load comes out and somebody shoots the Jello, and it shows the same results as the loads that have been proven in the Real World, most likely it will be a good choice down the road---but I'll let other folks test it for me first. Anything that punches a caliber-size hole in Jello I'd relegate to range use.
And, if a load tends to knock the Jello block off the table, that's too much of a good thing, and not likely to be what I want in a pistol (this doesn't necessarily count for shotguns and rifles--different subject).

And yes, I know it's 'gelatin'; I haven't had breakfast yet, thus the references to food. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2757 Posts

Posted - May 19 2017 :  11:04:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

My country boy reasoning says that if Evan's results, with a buncha (technical term) shootings shows 85%+ with a particular load, most likely it will be 'adequate' for social work. If it looks cool in Jello, that's just gravy.
If a new load comes out and somebody shoots the Jello, and it shows the same results as the loads that have been proven in the Real World, most likely it will be a good choice down the road---but I'll let other folks test it for me first. Anything that punches a caliber-size hole in Jello I'd relegate to range use.
And, if a load tends to knock the Jello block off the table, that's too much of a good thing, and not likely to be what I want in a pistol (this doesn't necessarily count for shotguns and rifles--different subject).

And yes, I know it's 'gelatin'; I haven't had breakfast yet, thus the references to food. Ace



+1. Good point, especially since Evan's percentage data is largely based upon 'one shot stops'. Should I ever have to use a handgun for self-defense again I have no intention of firing one round and then asking the assailant if they're ready to quit.

I'm certainly not a math whiz, but if a single round 'scores' 85+%, I have no reason to suspect that immediately following it with subsequent rounds will produce a lower 'score'

Edited to note that this 'rambling' stuff appears to be contagious

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.

Edited by - Chris Christian on May 19 2017 11:07:47 AM
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wolfgang2000
Advanced Member

USA
3698 Posts

Posted - May 19 2017 :  4:55:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The one thing that seldom considered while investigating shootings is the mental state of the suspect. As a rule we don't have to shoot "normal" people. Suspects under the influence or EDP with massive amount of adrenaline can become bullet sponges. The same person in a normal state of mind would cringe when a gun is pointed at them.

I know lab tests are necessary. But eventually the rubber has to meet the road. I try to but the round that works the best in real life and that I can afford. That's about all a person can do.

“The key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a tactical philosophy.” Evan Marshall
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Barnacle Bill
Advanced Member

USA
1253 Posts

Posted - May 25 2017 :  1:43:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

So.... what about 'reversing' the process?

Rather than using gel results to try and figure out how good a particular load might be in the Real World.... how about taking the already street-proven loads (like the Gold Dot and HST +P), shoot them in gel, then use those results to show how a load already known to work in the Real World performs in an artificial medium?

Then use that as your 'standard' to gauge the gel performance of new, untested-in-the-street loads? Is that maybe the best gauge available for evaluating a newly-released load, until it accumulates enough of a track record to prove itself (or not) in the Real World?

I realize that won't tell us all we need to know about the real-world performance of a new load--- only street results can provide the 'final say'. But wouldn't it tell us something useful? Especially if it differs radically from the gel performance of loads that are proven?


If you and Jim are just rambling, then I'm just toddling....





IIRC, they did that in the tables in at least one of Evan's books - showed the gel result along with the street results.
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