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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4377 Posts

Posted - May 10 2017 :  5:47:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I notice on Buffalo Bore's website they say that hardcast 147 gr 9mm 'Outdoorsman' load that Phil Shoemaker killed the grizzly with can be counted on to give 4' to 6' penetration through flesh and bone.

I can see how that might be 'enough' against a charging grizz--- clearly it was, in Mr Shoemaker's case--- but I still think I'd prefer more.....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 10 2017 8:41:37 PM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4377 Posts

Posted - May 10 2017 :  8:48:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by revjen45

Karamojo Bell killed lotsa elephants with a 6.5x54, but then he could shoot seagulls out of the air @ 100yd with it.


100 yds? You call that good shooting?

With my Swedish Mauser, I can shoot birds out of the air that are so far away, you can't even see 'em.... and I can do it all day long.....


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 10 2017 9:22:42 PM
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5050 Posts

Posted - May 11 2017 :  01:05:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So.....the brother has an old Model 97 Winchester that shoots pheasants so far out, he has to load salt in with the shot to keep the meat fresh until he can get there to pick it up.



Back in my fishing days, we had a saying: 'The first liar ain't got a chance.' Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4377 Posts

Posted - May 11 2017 :  06:48:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - May 11 2017 :  07:59:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Yonder

35 Whelan? There's something about that increased .358 frontal area I like



I don't see why not. It has served in the big woods since around 1925 I think. Very pleasant to shoot compared to the .338 Win. Mag.

Jim H.

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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - May 11 2017 :  08:12:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by perrodelucha

I want to say THANK YOU to everybody for the replies. I like the marlin 45-70 because of the rifle but I think that the 375 is the better bullet. I looked at the 338wm also but I couldn't find an iron sighted, stainless steel, polymer stocked rifle. I've narrowed it down to the Marlin and the Browning x-bolt in 375. Probably going to get the Browning due to the better ballistics. Thanks again for everybody's help.



Based on your original question of "all around" I'd have to say you are correct.

Do keep in mind that Wild West Guns is up there and, if I'm not mistaken, actually came up with the idea of the Guide gun and carries Garrets 45-70 ammo which is widely reputed to be better than a .375 on Cape Buffalo - in fact if it is still up Garret has the story on his website of a user that killed two Cape Buffalo with the same shot.

But that is sort of specialty ammo and I bet the .375 in a variety of loads is available at most trading posts.

And, as you note, the .375 is more useful at longer ranges and it likely still "enough gun" for the charging Grizzly.

I have an acquaintance who took a record book Moose in Newfoundland with a .280 Remington so if just taking game was the goal then anything would be fine - but I would worry a little - I think his moose ran over a mile before it fell (in a lake of course).

Jim

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wolfgang2000
Advanced Member

USA
3742 Posts

Posted - May 11 2017 :  5:32:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I spent a couple years in Alaska thanks to Uncle Sam. The 338 and the 375 were extremely popular up there then. If you plan on hunting enough to justify the purchase you can't go wrong with one of them. (Side note, their popularity has caused a supply and demand issue. You will pay 3x as much for one of those calibers up there, as compared to the lower 48. if you sold the gun before you came back to the lower 48 you could make a handsome profit.)

If you are just looking for a simple SD gun the 12 gauge with slugs will work just find. Us lowly enlisted types couldn't afford the price for those popular rifles. Most of us just used the 3006 and shot 220grn loads.

“The key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a tactical philosophy.” Evan Marshall
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
4992 Posts

Posted - May 12 2017 :  07:49:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wolfgang2000

I spent a couple years in Alaska thanks to Uncle Sam. The 338 and the 375 were extremely popular up there then. If you plan on hunting enough to justify the purchase you can't go wrong with one of them. (Side note, their popularity has caused a supply and demand issue. You will pay 3x as much for one of those calibers up there, as compared to the lower 48. if you sold the gun before you came back to the lower 48 you could make a handsome profit.)

If you are just looking for a simple SD gun the 12 gauge with slugs will work just find. Us lowly enlisted types couldn't afford the price for those popular rifles. Most of us just used the 3006 and shot 220grn loads.

Which raises the obvious question, how did those '06/220 grain combinations work? Since it's widely held that that's about all the gun most shooters can handle anyway. I'm suspecting, as usual, it's all about location?

Jeff


jle3030
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Badge
Advanced Member

USA
1648 Posts

Posted - May 12 2017 :  10:57:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
JJ3030,
I read an account of someone having to stop a Grizzly charging at very close range. One shooter had a .375 and the other a .30-06 with 220 grain Peters loads. Jim,.. I expect you to know of who I am speaking. I believe the year was 1937 in Alaska. According to the author the .30-06 really didn't giver the desired penetration although the shot placement wasn't outstanding. The .375 H&H apparently did much better and did a great deal more damage as well. To me that would be expected as I have both weapons and have seen what both can do on creatures. Modern projectiles have improved virtually all cartridges so much that I think if one had to face down a large and angry Bear a .30-06 wouldn't be a terrible choice so long a Premium projectiles were employed. Grand ole cartridge the .375 H&H,...... almost borders on the romantic what with all of the African hunting tales I've read from various Authors. One day, when I'm independently wealthy and secure I'd very much love to go to the Dark Continent and use the .375 on a Cape Buffalo as it is just one of the those things that even as a young Lad I've dreamed of doing. Probable a pipe dream but what the heck,.... it doesn't cost anything to dream.

MSS
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9431 Posts

Posted - May 12 2017 :  1:34:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Badge

JJ3030,
I read an account of someone having to stop a Grizzly charging at very close range. One shooter had a .375 and the other a .30-06 with 220 grain Peters loads. Jim,.. I expect you to know of who I am speaking. I believe the year was 1937 in Alaska. According to the author the .30-06 really didn't giver the desired penetration although the shot placement wasn't outstanding. The .375 H&H apparently did much better and did a great deal more damage as well. To me that would be expected as I have both weapons and have seen what both can do on creatures. Modern projectiles have improved virtually all cartridges so much that I think if one had to face down a large and angry Bear a .30-06 wouldn't be a terrible choice so long a Premium projectiles were employed. Grand ole cartridge the .375 H&H,...... almost borders on the romantic what with all of the African hunting tales I've read from various Authors. One day, when I'm independently wealthy and secure I'd very much love to go to the Dark Continent and use the .375 on a Cape Buffalo as it is just one of the those things that even as a young Lad I've dreamed of doing. Probable a pipe dream but what the heck,.... it doesn't cost anything to dream.



I think I do - and I actually have a copy of his journal

I have a neighbor I know well who is not just a Game Warden but the district supervisor - he went to Canada and ended up on the last day of his hunt killing 3 black bear with a 30-06 using 220 gr Remington ammo.

None of the bullets exited and non of the bear went down rapidly but they also did not run far enough to be a problem.

He said that none of them left a good blood trail. The biggest one was about 400 lbs, smallest about 250.

He came away sort of satisfied with the load but wasn't all that impressed - he said the next time he would take something bigger.

But I wonder if a 200+ monolithic like the Barnes TSX might not have done a bit better - Cor-lokts are not exactly known for penetration.

I've always sort of went to either side of the .375 but I admit it is a well balanced cartridge and modern bullets do it no harm in taking advantage of that balance. There is definitely that romantic side - in fact I think it was invented in that best of all years for firearms - 1911, though I think first production was in 1912

Jim

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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2939 Posts

Posted - May 12 2017 :  2:18:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Random thought here... my limited experience with the .375 H&H indicates (at least to me) that with a decently-shaped stock it has no more recoil that a 8.5-pound 12 gauge with slugs. On the plus side, it can drop 'food item' critters out past 400 yards if the shooter knows what they are doing. I can't say that about any 12-guage slug I've ever seen. At those ranges, they're like lobbing motor shells.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2939 Posts

Posted - May 12 2017 :  2:23:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

So.....the brother has an old Model 97 Winchester that shoots pheasants so far out, he has to load salt in with the shot to keep the meat fresh until he can get there to pick it up.



Back in my fishing days, we had a saying: 'The first liar ain't got a chance.' Ace



I had a rifle once that was so powerful that when I shot a deer it was already skinned, gutted, and butchered. All I needed to do was wander on over and start putting the cuts of meat into gallon baggies.

The second liar ain't got a chance either

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2939 Posts

Posted - May 12 2017 :  2:26:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I knew a fisherman once that only had one arm. He never won at the "liar's club' because all his fish were only "this long"

I apologize. I think I may now be the victim of "unintended consequence"

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.

Edited by - Chris Christian on May 12 2017 2:28:54 PM
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wolfgang2000
Advanced Member

USA
3742 Posts

Posted - May 12 2017 :  4:14:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wolfgang2000

I spent a couple years in Alaska thanks to Uncle Sam. The 338 and the 375 were extremely popular up there then. If you plan on hunting enough to justify the purchase you can't go wrong with one of them. (Side note, their popularity has caused a supply and demand issue. You will pay 3x as much for one of those calibers up there, as compared to the lower 48. if you sold the gun before you came back to the lower 48 you could make a handsome profit.)

If you are just looking for a simple SD gun the 12 gauge with slugs will work just find. Us lowly enlisted types couldn't afford the price for those popular rifles. Most of us just used the 3006 and shot 220grn loads.


I never killed a bear but it did quite well on moose. I know people that did take a bear with the 220 o6 combo, it always took more than one round.

one professional guide told me that he wouldn't take anyone with just the 3006. His bottom line was the 300 mag. Remember this was 73 to 76 time frame. I have no idea of what has changed since then.

“The key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a tactical philosophy.” Evan Marshall
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5050 Posts

Posted - May 12 2017 :  7:10:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Then there's the guy who shoots rabbits with .45acp tracers; shoots them nose-to-tail or tail-to-nose, claims the big bullet cleans them, the tracer cooks them, and all he does is peel the skin off and eat. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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revjen45
Advanced Member

2234 Posts

Posted - May 14 2017 :  11:41:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How about AR platform in .458 SOCOM, 450 Bushmaster, etc.? .45/70 class ballistics in a compact package.

Better to perish in the struggle for freedom than live to see defeat.
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4377 Posts

Posted - May 14 2017 :  12:15:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They flunk the Walmart test.

But I'll bet they may lead the pack in the ability to make fast follow-up shots.

In 458 SOCOM, Buffalo Bore offers a 405 gr hardcast flatnose gas-check round at 1675 fps.

And it's only $44 for a box of 20!



And not quite .45-70 ballistics: BB's .45-70 loading of 405 gr JFP is somewhat faster at 2000 fps.


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 14 2017 1:33:03 PM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4377 Posts

Posted - May 14 2017 :  1:23:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Interesting observations by Randy Garrett (emphasis mine):

"PENETRATION: THE 45-70 & 458 MAGNUMS: The following is based on bullet penetration test results as measured in water-saturated penetration materials (wet newspapers). Water is the primary substance of life, and constitutes about 90% of the content of all mammals. I have observed that some "testers" have chosen wood boards or dry newspapers for penetration testing material, and this is a very poor choice, which in no way simulates the characteristics of a bullet impact with animal flesh. Wood tends to channel the bullet path, and is less demonstrative of the terminal instabilities inherent to non-expanding bullets when impacting game animals, and is thus an inferior material for the testing of bullet penetration characteristics. Water-saturated penetration materials such as newspapers or ballistic gelatin are far superior with regards to their ability to demonstrate the terminal instabilities that typically occur when non-expanding bullets impact live animal flesh.

There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.

Fortunately for all of us who shoot the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70's "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great."



"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 15 2017 07:14:49 AM
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revjen45
Advanced Member

2234 Posts

Posted - May 15 2017 :  12:39:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"And it's only $44 for a box of 20!" (LittleBill above)

Cheap at half the price if it stops some gigantic wonderfuzzy from dismembering you.

Better to perish in the struggle for freedom than live to see defeat.
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perrodelucha
Senior Member

USA
927 Posts

Posted - May 15 2017 :  3:05:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Based on your original question of "al around" I'd have to say you are correct" - Jim H. Can't ask for much more than Mr. Higginbotham agreeing with you! Fine company indeed! Thanks again fellas!
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4377 Posts

Posted - May 15 2017 :  3:46:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by revjen45

"And it's only $44 for a box of 20!" (LittleBill above)

Cheap at half the price if it stops some gigantic wonderfuzzy from dismembering you.


Indeed!

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4377 Posts

Posted - May 15 2017 :  7:53:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's the cost of the practice rounds that'll 'kill' ya!


"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on May 15 2017 7:54:04 PM
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Badge
Advanced Member

USA
1648 Posts

Posted - May 16 2017 :  01:19:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jim,.. it was Elmer Keith at Snug Island, AK all those many years ago. What impressed me was his description of the damage the .375 inflicted and the removal of a large section of bone from the charging Bear at very close range. It sold me on the .375 as well as some extensive reading from some PH's in Africa. What's best, I think about the .375's are that they are very controllable, even when firing from the bench. At least for me. I think the only other Big rifle I would purchase if money was of no object would be the .416 Rigby as I have fired a Ruger in that caliber and it too wasn't uncontrollable or abusive to shoot.

MSS
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Dov
Advanced Member

USA
2639 Posts

Posted - May 16 2017 :  06:21:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

Random thought here... my limited experience with the .375 H&H indicates (at least to me) that with a decently-shaped stock it has no more recoil that a 8.5-pound 12 gauge with slugs. On the plus side, it can drop 'food item' critters out past 400 yards if the shooter knows what they are doing. I can't say that about any 12-guage slug I've ever seen. At those ranges, they're like lobbing motor shells.



Chris, what was the weight of 375 rifle with scope if so equipped for comparison?

Edited by - Dov on May 16 2017 06:22:27 AM
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2939 Posts

Posted - May 16 2017 :  06:40:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dov, don't remember the weight but it was probably in the 9 to 10 pound range.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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