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ASCTLC
Senior Member

612 Posts

Posted - March 19 2017 :  11:15:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, it's been a couple weeks since the MAG40 class. I'm now preparing to follow up with Mas' suggested post learning tasks to further solidify the learning and benefits. I keep reflecting on topics and material learning well after class. It came pretty fast and heavy, for me, but I apparently absorbed even more than I realized at the time.

What I learned during training was incredible. There were interesting surprises and I'd like to think my continued exposure to people like you guys didn't have me sitting in the dark with all that was presented. I was a little concerned about not doing well enough and passing but for naught. I owe you guys a bit of thanks for this

Most clear through that experience are what I see I need to work on more, both on the range and with the non-range aspects of encounters. I'll humbly say my heart is right but I feel like I have been in one heck of a cocoon sitting isolated in my home office for the last 16 years focused intently on my career.

I learned just yesterday the term "Nike defense". The action isn't lost on me as I've always thought my first reaction will be to run if at all possible. I realize though that is simply one of many possible reactions to a situation given enough recognition of what's transpiring but I feel the need for much improvement for a more likely occurrence of a too late surprise.

I've never been a fighter and have never been in a fight where someone actually wanted to hurt me. So I think I may have difficulty recognizing it for what it is soon enough if it finds me or being able to sufficiently respond physically to get disengaged before it becomes too late to have to shoot.

While I'm not old (53) I'm still not young (enough) either. I have no physical fight experience/training nor crisis mgt exposure to compensate.

This leaves me to consider the next training I take (and hopefully can convince my wife to take with me this time) next year. What I hope to gain more knowledge of is situational awareness and threat recognition to decrease my odds of walking into an encounter in the first place or at least better recognize the situation sooner to gain that needed time to exit/react.

Two that I have thought are Shivworks ECQC and a William Aprill's MDTS class. Do you guys have any suggestion towards which of these might be best to consider first or a training/trainer I don't know about?

Attending Tom's Tactical Conference is definitely on my list already!

My training budget was wiped out for this year down in Tucson so I want to prepare ahead of time to reserve another training next year.

Thanks as always,
Andy

Ace
Advanced Member

USA
4862 Posts

Posted - March 19 2017 :  2:49:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You might take a look around closer to home, see if there are any local instructors that wouldn't require long travel and a fat wallet. Check them out, be sure they aren't Mall Ninja-types who have read SWAT magazine articles and are now experts. A one-day or afternoon class now and then can be helpful---even if they turn out bad, you can learn what not to do.

And you're right, hanging out here can cover a lot of good stuff; you just don't get a pretty certificate to hang on the wall. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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Evan
Administrator

33982 Posts

Posted - March 19 2017 :  3:46:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I joined law enforcement when we "qualified" cocking our S&W Model 10's and shooting at a bulls eye target. I found too much of the available training at that time re-enforced bad habits and were based on false premises.

I stumbled my way thru much of life, but the old timers who broke me in had been combat veterans in WW II and were approaching retirement. I learned from them and found that mental alertness trumped a fast draw.

Learned to listen to my gut-never had a better teacher!

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Pop Pop
Senior Member

USA
590 Posts

Posted - March 19 2017 :  4:12:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With a bad heart, bad eyes(cataracts), bad knees, and a bad back I am much more observant than any time in my life. Physical fighting is out for me, at this time. That worries me.

Getting the eyes fixed in the next 3 weeks. Since I am off blood thinners hoping to address the knee problems in the near future. Not much I can do for the heart, but exercise, which I am doing. Growing old is not for sissies! Just glad to be here.

Edited to add, Andy, the last formal training I did, was taking the NRA Certified instructor course about 3 years ago. Train on brother. As for me I am trying the "Gray Man" thing for now, but the way I move I must look like a easy target. That worries me also. When I am out I keep my chin up and my head on a swivel.

Pop Pop

Edited by - Pop Pop on March 19 2017 4:21:00 PM
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Pat Taylor
Starting Member

USA
37 Posts

Posted - March 19 2017 :  5:25:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Suarez is in Arizona......( that is a joke and not a serious suggestion )

William April has some interesting material. I have attended 2 of his seminars.


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Arvinator
Advanced Member

USA
5188 Posts

Posted - March 19 2017 :  8:59:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
While I am ONLY 48 today, I prefer to cheat if in any altercation. I carry a 2 ounce can of OC and with mental awareness my plan is to spray them and if I have to go to hands on fighting.
Firearms training? I do all on my own time, every department I've ever worked for only qualified once a year. I draw the WAY I CARRY. When I wore a gun on my ankle, I drew from ankle. On those I carry in my pocket, I draw and fire from the pocket. I start shooting at close ( What Evan calls bad breath distance) and work my way out. within arms reach out to 25 yards with the majority at 3, 7, & 15 yards. My rifles I shoot 25 to 200 yards, depending on the rifle I shoot that day and yes I shoot my .22 rifles also!

Today I work in detention, but carry my sidearm to work daily and go out as assigned with a shackled prisoner. I know the dangers & threats are still out there.

Be honest, fair, and always prepared...
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garrettwc
Advanced Member

1011 Posts

Posted - March 19 2017 :  9:31:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Google "Southnarc's managing unknown contacts" and see if there is a class/lecture near you. ECQC is a physical class that shows you how to fight your way out of a tight spot. MUC is about seeing the fight coming beforehand. Haven't taken the class personally, but the reviews and after action reports I've read sound like what you are looking for.

"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready."
Teddy Roosevelt - San Francisco, CA, May 13, 1903
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enidpd804
Advanced Member

1756 Posts

Posted - March 19 2017 :  9:45:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
William Aprill's "Unthinkable" program is what you're looking for, I believe. If you search, you should be able to find a review I did on the class. I sent my wife and daughter through it. I've only taken the two-hour, condensed version of MUC, but both Douglas and Larry Lindenman are top shelf instructors.

The key to Tac Con is getting in. You have to watch closely and enroll within a week or two of the posting. It fills up quickly.

Warren
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ASCTLC
Senior Member

612 Posts

Posted - March 20 2017 :  09:58:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you guys! What's that saying.....A smart guy learns from his mistakes but a wise guy learns from other's mistakes? You guys are a gold mine for me. Much of what I learned from Mas' course has been continued information I see you guys convey.

Ace, Now that I'm retired my wife and I plan to do a bit of running around the country checking places out so courses in other locations works out for us. Tucson was one of those trips. We went early and spend 2 full days exploring, then while I was in class she explored more. We foresee this continuing.

Evan, that's why I pay close attention to what you and the guys say about specific recommendations for instructors you respect. As it goes in most of life, we can't afford cheap crap, we can only manage to find a way to afford things once so it better be right. Do you think there'll ever be another H&S?? I'd love to pull up a stool and absorb. I believe I even have the free time now to assist with setting up and tearing down too - there's have nowhere I have to be. My wife and I are planning to visit MI as a possible new location for a move back to the midwest anyway.

Pop Pop, compared to you TOGs I feel like I'm a siss. That's said tongue in cheek but I'm all too aware of the physical differences I experienced from my 40s to my 50s, it only picks up pace from here, doesn't it. When we're out I find myself intentionally walking very erect, head high, shoulders back, and eye contacting everyone.

Arv, There's an inconsistency in my shooting. I catch my self flinching/anticipating/allkindsofcrap and even throwing shots when the sight picture and my trigger press is what I swear was perfect. I'm reading and watching everything I can to fix this but remote 'instruction' isn't working because I don't know what is exactly wrong or if I'm just a combination of all kinds of things wrong, including my grip. I'll write another post on that specific subject.

garrettwc, for some reason I got the impression the MUC was renamed to ECQC. If MUC is still an offered course then it looks like Craig may have both instructions I need/want. Of course, that still leaves me with the decision of which I should take first. I'm leaning to the MUC first.

enipdpd804, I'll do a search for that! William Aprill's site doesn't show him having an Unthinkable course scheduled for 2017 and there's no 2018 schedule posted (yet). I think I might be able to get (enough of?) William's info through the Tactical Conference (TC) in 2018 though (win-win ). I'll be watching for the TC 2018 posting to grab a spot as soon as it is open for enrollment.

Andy
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator

USA
9255 Posts

Posted - March 20 2017 :  11:18:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All of the above are fine instructors and worth while.

The Rangemaster Tactical Conference is likely the most bang for the buck going - lots of the best qualified instructors in the World there. It fills up about 6 months in advance.

In fact the only real problem is you might likely find you want to attend two or even three sessions at the same time!

Another one some folks miss is Tom Givens' Handgun Instructor's Course. They miss it because they think it might not be useful to them if they do not aspire to become an instructor themselves - it is not really only for instructors - it is a total immersion course in how to shoot a handgun and includes the "why" of the different aspects.

So, if you never even think about becoming an instructor but just a much better shot/gun handler I'd highly recommend this course - it too is a best value.

Jim H.

Get the Weaponcraft Journal on Amazon: Print or Kindle!
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ASCTLC
Senior Member

612 Posts

Posted - March 20 2017 :  12:05:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you Jim. I'm glad you spoke to the reason someone might miss an "instructor" course. I know I didn't consider it to be appropriate for me for the reason you state. I'll look into finding something Tom may have available.
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BobM77
Advanced Member

USA
1419 Posts

Posted - March 20 2017 :  9:21:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I got home from the TacCon a few hours ago. There's a good selection of course work so you can get a taste of a number of topics and instructors. The Instructor course is also excellent training, much much better than what the state academy offers.
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
4862 Posts

Posted - March 20 2017 :  10:14:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've been wanting to attend the Instructor course, but finances haven't been there yet--which is my own fault. I know I'd learn a lot of good stuff, and it would give me more credibility when offering basic classes on top of the Concealed Carry course. Plus I'm sure I'd provide a lot of entertainment, trying to 'get the moves down'.
One of these days.... Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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garrettwc
Advanced Member

1011 Posts

Posted - March 21 2017 :  9:17:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ASCTLC, Southnarc does offer MUC on day 1 of the ECQC class. At one time I think he did it as a 1 day standalone, but that may be incorrect.

"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready."
Teddy Roosevelt - San Francisco, CA, May 13, 1903
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