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Badge
Advanced Member

USA
1648 Posts

Posted - October 01 2016 :  6:03:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Had to send my first Glock back for some attention. The trigger was very " Gritty " up to the let off and had an audible " clicking" noise. It ejected many rounds directly back at me and some into the forehead. Not terrible desirable. It shot dead on but consistently high be it 5 yards or 50 yards so back it went. Anyone else have similar issues? It is a 19. Just curious.

MSS

Ten Driver
Advanced Member

1683 Posts

Posted - October 15 2016 :  01:36:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The brass to the face issue is common enough that there's a popular acronym for it amongst Glock enthusiasts: BTF. It frequently pops up on the Gen3 guns that are fitted with the LCI extractor, but I've heard complaints about it with respect to Gen4 guns as well.

The first thing to try is different ammo. Some of the lower-powered stuff (like WWB) seems to be more prone to BTF. The higher-energy loads are flung from the gun with more oomph, and often steer clear of the face.

The next thing to try is gun plumbing. In the Gen3 guns, it's easily solved by going back to the non-LCI extractor, or sticking with the LCI extractor and replacing the Gen3 ejector blade with a Gen4 ejector. On the Gen4 guns, it seems to be most commonly solved by trying a different extractor until you find one where the tolerance stacking works in your favor.

The Gen4 trigger is different than the Gen3. It's not gritty, just a bit heavier. Maybe you got a bad sample.

Best of luck. I hope it comes back to your satisfaction.

Mike
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Badge
Advanced Member

USA
1648 Posts

Posted - October 15 2016 :  09:51:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the insight friend. I'm awaiting it's return and I am sure it will be resolved. I appreciate your thoughts.

MSS
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Pop Pop
Senior Member

USA
682 Posts

Posted - October 15 2016 :  6:16:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a gen 3, 19 and it does the same thing with Winchester White Box practice ammo. Hotter stuff does cure it's problems with BTF ejection.

Pop Pop
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4949shooter
Senior Member

USA
584 Posts

Posted - October 18 2016 :  10:58:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Badge, I am sorry about your BTF issue. I have a friend / coworker who had an early gen 4 with the same issue. He sent it back to Glock and they fixed the problem. I'm sure yours will be taken care of.

We were just issued Gen 4 G19's which replaced our failing Sigs. The guns are running great, with no BTF issue. Ammo is 124 grain Lawman and 124 grain Gold Dot.

Good luck and I hope they resolve it for you.
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Badge
Advanced Member

USA
1648 Posts

Posted - October 18 2016 :  11:31:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
4939, thanks friend. First Glock I ever had issues with. Just notified that it is on it's way back. I was using a variety of loads,... ball,.. former duty loads. I'm sure that Glock will make it right. Keep you posted.

MSS
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Badge
Advanced Member

USA
1648 Posts

Posted - October 20 2016 :  1:46:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
4949, Got it back from Glock. They replaced the Firing Pin Safety Assy,.... E.d.PLunger Assy, Trigger Housing and Ejector. At least it wasn't my imagination.

MSS
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4949shooter
Senior Member

USA
584 Posts

Posted - October 20 2016 :  3:08:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sounds good brother. How does it feel?
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Badge
Advanced Member

USA
1648 Posts

Posted - October 21 2016 :  08:34:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
4949, Just dry firing the Trigger is fantastic,..... just like a Glock should be. I am hoping to get out to the range in the next few day's for a just to be sure session. I appreciate your assistance and comments.

MSS
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Charlie Foxtrot
Junior Member

204 Posts

Posted - October 21 2016 :  10:51:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
4949shooter, what types of problems has your agency been experiencing with the failing Sigs?
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4949shooter
Senior Member

USA
584 Posts

Posted - October 21 2016 :  8:42:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
CF there were multiple failures to extract and / or eject.

In some cases the guns locked up and couldn't be cleared without requiring intervention from an armorer with tools.

It was really unfortunate to see this happen, as our old 228's were near flawless,
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4949shooter
Senior Member

USA
584 Posts

Posted - October 21 2016 :  8:46:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Badge

4949, Just dry firing the Trigger is fantastic,..... just like a Glock should be. I am hoping to get out to the range in the next few day's for a just to be sure session. I appreciate your assistance and comments.



Anytime Brother. Looking forward to a range report..
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Charlie Foxtrot
Junior Member

204 Posts

Posted - October 21 2016 :  11:21:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
4949shooter, thanks for the info.
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exfed2002
Advanced Member

1220 Posts

Posted - October 22 2016 :  05:47:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 4949shooter

CF there were multiple failures to extract and / or eject.

In some cases the guns locked up and couldn't be cleared without requiring intervention from an armorer with tools.

It was really unfortunate to see this happen, as our old 228's were near flawless,



I'd be interested to know what they found.

The early P229DAO model of which I have one, seemed to be pretty flawless among the guys who got them. Only one friend of mine seemed to have consistent problems with the extractor.

I had some problems with the extractor (double feeds)on my P250 45 compact that were remedied by SIG putting in an extractor with more initial bite on the case rim so the extractor could not bounce over and past the rim if the case hit the top round in the mag on cycling.

My 320 45 Compact had an extractor that was a hair too tight and could stop just short of battery if I tried to feed a case that had been reloaded many times. I was able to take care of that myself by smoothing the sharp edges on the extractor and opening up the claw to breechface gap to match that of my 250. (It took two fingers and lots of effort to slide a fresh case under the extractor)

I have had no problems with the 9MM 320SC, and no problems with the 40SC kit for the 250.

One thing I do note with the 45, 9, and 40 cases is that the inside surface of the rim can tend to roughen after a number of firings and resizings. It's just rough enough to catch the extractor short of battery. My Dillon shellplate catches these easily. A clean case should slide under with no effort. A munged case will take effort. If the rim cannot be smoothed out with fine paper, the case goes in the brass can at the range.

"The answer is there is no answer."
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4949shooter
Senior Member

USA
584 Posts

Posted - October 22 2016 :  07:11:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charlie Foxtrot

4949shooter, thanks for the info.



Anytime CF...
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4949shooter
Senior Member

USA
584 Posts

Posted - October 22 2016 :  07:20:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by exfed2002

quote:
Originally posted by 4949shooter

CF there were multiple failures to extract and / or eject.

In some cases the guns locked up and couldn't be cleared without requiring intervention from an armorer with tools.

It was really unfortunate to see this happen, as our old 228's were near flawless,



I'd be interested to know what they found.

The early P229DAO model of which I have one, seemed to be pretty flawless among the guys who got them. Only one friend of mine seemed to have consistent problems with the extractor.

I had some problems with the extractor (double feeds)on my P250 45 compact that were remedied by SIG putting in an extractor with more initial bite on the case rim so the extractor could not bounce over and past the rim if the case hit the top round in the mag on cycling.

My 320 45 Compact had an extractor that was a hair too tight and could stop just short of battery if I tried to feed a case that had been reloaded many times. I was able to take care of that myself by smoothing the sharp edges on the extractor and opening up the claw to breechface gap to match that of my 250. (It took two fingers and lots of effort to slide a fresh case under the extractor)

I have had no problems with the 9MM 320SC, and no problems with the 40SC kit for the 250.

One thing I do note with the 45, 9, and 40 cases is that the inside surface of the rim can tend to roughen after a number of firings and resizings. It's just rough enough to catch the extractor short of battery. My Dillon shellplate catches these easily. A clean case should slide under with no effort. A munged case will take effort. If the rim cannot be smoothed out with fine paper, the case goes in the brass can at the range.



Exfed,
I think the answer is in your Sig line (no pun intended).

The Sig guns are being turned in and replaced this fall. The entire transition should be completed by mid-December.
Sig never came up with a solution or fix to the problem, hence the transition to Glock.

They did swap out some extractors (my issued gun included), but this did not completely solve the issue. I am thinking Sig's use of lower cost parts, springs, etc. is the issue.....maybe.

Military arms Channel does a good torture test comparison video including the Sig Legion, a Glock, and a Hungarian made Sig copy. The Legion, which as we know is supposed to be their top of the line product, failed miserably.

To Hell and Back reliability is no more. I hope they get the issues resolved though.
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exfed2002
Advanced Member

1220 Posts

Posted - October 22 2016 :  08:02:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 4949shooter


Exfed,
I think the answer is in your Sig line (no pun intended).

The Sig guns are being turned in and replaced this fall. The entire transition should be completed by mid-December.
Sig never came up with a solution or fix to the problem, hence the transition to Glock.

They did swap out some extractors (my issued gun included), but this did not completely solve the issue. I am thinking Sig's use of lower cost parts, springs, etc. is the issue.....maybe.

Military arms Channel does a good torture test comparison video including the Sig Legion, a Glock, and a Hungarian made Sig copy. The Legion, which as we know is supposed to be their top of the line product, failed miserably.

To Hell and Back reliability is no more. I hope they get the issues resolved though.



The signature is something a long dead boss of mine used to tell us when we were kids on the job and were looking for explanations of life and work. He was OSS during WWII, but you'd never know it from looking at him. We made fun of it then, but now we realize that he was right.

I suppose we have an advantage since we know more about our weapons than most MOS. I pretty much have all my SIGs working 100%, and if they don't I am able to diagnose the problems, which are usually very simple and don't return once solved.

"The answer is there is no answer."
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rscalzo
Starting Member

4 Posts

Posted - October 22 2016 :  11:08:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
The Legion, which as we know is supposed to be their top of the line product, failed miserably.




Except you totally missed the point of that line. The basic firearm is a standard 220, 226, or 229. They incorporate some top of the line Bruce Grey parts, a unique finish and a new line of sights. Guess what you missed was that the Legion was also a test bed for the new US manufacture red X-5 series as the cuts in the frame duplicate those of the European X-5's no longer available.

So the test uses a model that is built to tighter tolerances? Guess what? The X-5 series or X-6 would also fail. So would a Gold Cup. Looser tolerances will allow a greater range of functioning when sand is introduced to the gun.

In some tests, he admits that the substances used to "check" the guns varies from test to test. Not that scientific.

Meanwhile, the 320 did just great and the NJSP couldn't get them to run.

Check the Glock test. Same failures.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYUz5jahjFs

What I did notice is, when he pushes the handguns down into the sand and mud while loaded, he covers the muzzle with his fingers. One day he's going to lose a few.


Edited by - rscalzo on October 22 2016 11:15:02 AM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4363 Posts

Posted - October 22 2016 :  1:34:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 4949shooter

quote:
Originally posted by exfed2002

quote:
Originally posted by 4949shooter

CF there were multiple failures to extract and / or eject.

In some cases the guns locked up and couldn't be cleared without requiring intervention from an armorer with tools.

It was really unfortunate to see this happen, as our old 228's were near flawless,



I'd be interested to know what they found.

The early P229DAO model of which I have one, seemed to be pretty flawless among the guys who got them. Only one friend of mine seemed to have consistent problems with the extractor.

I had some problems with the extractor (double feeds)on my P250 45 compact that were remedied by SIG putting in an extractor with more initial bite on the case rim so the extractor could not bounce over and past the rim if the case hit the top round in the mag on cycling.

My 320 45 Compact had an extractor that was a hair too tight and could stop just short of battery if I tried to feed a case that had been reloaded many times. I was able to take care of that myself by smoothing the sharp edges on the extractor and opening up the claw to breechface gap to match that of my 250. (It took two fingers and lots of effort to slide a fresh case under the extractor)

I have had no problems with the 9MM 320SC, and no problems with the 40SC kit for the 250.

One thing I do note with the 45, 9, and 40 cases is that the inside surface of the rim can tend to roughen after a number of firings and resizings. It's just rough enough to catch the extractor short of battery. My Dillon shellplate catches these easily. A clean case should slide under with no effort. A munged case will take effort. If the rim cannot be smoothed out with fine paper, the case goes in the brass can at the range.



Exfed,
I think the answer is in your Sig line (no pun intended).

The Sig guns are being turned in and replaced this fall. The entire transition should be completed by mid-December.
Sig never came up with a solution or fix to the problem, hence the transition to Glock.

They did swap out some extractors (my issued gun included), but this did not completely solve the issue. I am thinking Sig's use of lower cost parts, springs, etc. is the issue.....maybe.

Military arms Channel does a good torture test comparison video including the Sig Legion, a Glock, and a Hungarian made Sig copy. The Legion, which as we know is supposed to be their top of the line product, failed miserably.

To Hell and Back reliability is no more. I hope they get the issues resolved though.


The Sig Legion in this particular test may have "failed miserably"; but I've heard nothing but good reports about the Legions in general. The American Rifleman loved the one they tested.



"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on October 22 2016 1:35:17 PM
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4949shooter
Senior Member

USA
584 Posts

Posted - October 22 2016 :  9:19:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rscalzo

quote:
The Legion, which as we know is supposed to be their top of the line product, failed miserably.




Except you totally missed the point of that line. The basic firearm is a standard 220, 226, or 229. They incorporate some top of the line Bruce Grey parts, a unique finish and a new line of sights. Guess what you missed was that the Legion was also a test bed for the new US manufacture red X-5 series as the cuts in the frame duplicate those of the European X-5's no longer available.

So the test uses a model that is built to tighter tolerances? Guess what? The X-5 series or X-6 would also fail. So would a Gold Cup. Looser tolerances will allow a greater range of functioning when sand is introduced to the gun.

In some tests, he admits that the substances used to "check" the guns varies from test to test. Not that scientific.

Meanwhile, the 320 did just great and the NJSP couldn't get them to run.

Check the Glock test. Same failures.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYUz5jahjFs

What I did notice is, when he pushes the handguns down into the sand and mud while loaded, he covers the muzzle with his fingers. One day he's going to lose a few.





It isn't just the Legion, it is also other current production guns, including the newest 229.

As to your claim that the NJSP couldn't get the 320 to run... The Sig engineers came to the NJSP facility and couldn't get their own guns to run. In testing the 320 died when the Glock kept chugging along.

Edited by - 4949shooter on October 22 2016 10:34:35 PM
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4949shooter
Senior Member

USA
584 Posts

Posted - October 22 2016 :  9:23:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by 4949shooter

quote:
Originally posted by exfed2002

quote:
Originally posted by 4949shooter

CF there were multiple failures to extract and / or eject.

In some cases the guns locked up and couldn't be cleared without requiring intervention from an armorer with tools.

It was really unfortunate to see this happen, as our old 228's were near flawless,



I'd be interested to know what they found.

The early P229DAO model of which I have one, seemed to be pretty flawless among the guys who got them. Only one friend of mine seemed to have consistent problems with the extractor.

I had some problems with the extractor (double feeds)on my P250 45 compact that were remedied by SIG putting in an extractor with more initial bite on the case rim so the extractor could not bounce over and past the rim if the case hit the top round in the mag on cycling.

My 320 45 Compact had an extractor that was a hair too tight and could stop just short of battery if I tried to feed a case that had been reloaded many times. I was able to take care of that myself by smoothing the sharp edges on the extractor and opening up the claw to breechface gap to match that of my 250. (It took two fingers and lots of effort to slide a fresh case under the extractor)

I have had no problems with the 9MM 320SC, and no problems with the 40SC kit for the 250.

One thing I do note with the 45, 9, and 40 cases is that the inside surface of the rim can tend to roughen after a number of firings and resizings. It's just rough enough to catch the extractor short of battery. My Dillon shellplate catches these easily. A clean case should slide under with no effort. A munged case will take effort. If the rim cannot be smoothed out with fine paper, the case goes in the brass can at the range.



Exfed,
I think the answer is in your Sig line (no pun intended).

The Sig guns are being turned in and replaced this fall. The entire transition should be completed by mid-December.
Sig never came up with a solution or fix to the problem, hence the transition to Glock.

They did swap out some extractors (my issued gun included), but this did not completely solve the issue. I am thinking Sig's use of lower cost parts, springs, etc. is the issue.....maybe.

Military arms Channel does a good torture test comparison video including the Sig Legion, a Glock, and a Hungarian made Sig copy. The Legion, which as we know is supposed to be their top of the line product, failed miserably.

To Hell and Back reliability is no more. I hope they get the issues resolved though.


The Sig Legion in this particular test may have "failed miserably"; but I've heard nothing but good reports about the Legions in general. The American Rifleman loved the one they tested.







Don't forget the American Rifleman was most likely given hand picked sample to test. It is not part of a 3000 gun delivery.


Edited by - 4949shooter on October 22 2016 10:32:08 PM
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4363 Posts

Posted - October 23 2016 :  08:28:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, let me see if I've got this straight:

You're suggesting that Sig knows they've made a batch of guns that varies widely in quality and reliability--- since they wouldn't feel the need to hand-pick a suitable test gun, unless they knew that some of their guns were crap.

So they send out the good samples to gun writers.... then sell the rest to the general public; knowing full-well that many of them will disappoint their purchasers, thereby unleashing a torrent of negative comments and reviews; and damaging the Sig reputation in the process...

Is Sig really that greedy and/or stupid--- to take such a shallow, short-sighted view of their own best interest?

Is there no one in Sig management with the good business sense to point out: "Hey guys: we might save some $ and hassle by doing that; but aren't we hurting ourselves in the long run? In the final analysis, wouldn't honesty be the best policy here; even if it means we have to take a short-term financial hit? Does it make sense to risk damaging our reputation--- the one thing that 'money can't buy', that for a long time now has set us apart from so many others---in order to save a few bucks?"

Is Sig really that dumb?

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on October 23 2016 08:51:18 AM
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4949shooter
Senior Member

USA
584 Posts

Posted - October 23 2016 :  09:00:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't know Lttlebill. You tell me.

Better yet, I will tell you. You and Rscalzo are right. Sigs are perfect and I have been totally lying about the entire mishap with Sig. I have nothing better to do but come on a Glock sub forum so I can lie about Sigs to piss off the Sig lovers.

As a matter of fact, the New Jersey State Police had absolutely nothing better to do than go through a logistical and possible legal nightmare of getting rid of 2 year old guns in order to switch to a brand they have avoided for decades.

Okay? Feel better now?
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LittleBill
Advanced Member

4363 Posts

Posted - October 23 2016 :  09:12:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No! I feel terrible! Like you've violated my safe space! Without even so much as a trigger-warning!

How could you?!!!


I feel like I'm starting to melt....



Seriously though:

It wasn't my intention to have the final word, sorry if I came across that way. I really was posing the question: is Sig (or any other gun maker for that matter) really that dumb, to imagine they'd benefit themselves in the long run with those kind of bait-and-switch tactics?

Especially Sig: whose reputation has always been one of their top selling-points...?

But hey: maybe they are...

As to why any agency would switch to Glocks if the Sigs they were using weren't fatally-flawed; could it be that other considerations besides quality and reliability were in play: such as the budget-driven calculation that over the long run--- even factoring-in the costs of the switch--- using Glocks would simply be cheaper? And that their problems with their current batch of Sigs provided a good opportunity to make the switch?

But if you're right, and Sigs are no longer what they used to be, I expect we'll be seeing other agencies dumping them too.

LB

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at its testing point"--- C.S. Lewis

"There are some ideas so foolish that only an intellectual could believe them"--- George Orwell

Slow Is Smooth, Smooth Is Fast

Edited by - LittleBill on October 23 2016 09:40:52 AM
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4949shooter
Senior Member

USA
584 Posts

Posted - October 23 2016 :  09:41:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why would the NJSP drop two year old guns in order to switch to another brand? This having created severe logistical problems, legal issues, and having caused embarrassment to the people who chose the 229 in the first place. I don't know if you are law enforcement, but if you are you will know what I am referring to.

But to my point. We were discussing Glock pistols here on the Glock sub forum. The relevancy was that we happened to switch to the same make and model that Badge was asking about. My experience with the Gen 4 Glock 19 was related to Badge. Some of this experience involved a switch made from a certain make and model (Sig 229) that did not work out.

Exfed saw this, and followed up on a conversation he and I had been having off forum. The facts are what they are in this case. Exfed knows the issue and has offered some possible solutions, both on and off forum.

I can't change the truth of what occurred in order to make you and rcalzo happy. The truth and facts are what they are in this case. You guys choose not to believe it and that's fine with me. I guess we won't be having a beer together. Well that's okay, because I am not much of a drinker anyway.

Would I ever buy a Sig after this? Maybe in 10mm. I don't believe there are issues with the 10mm Sig, and from photos of the slide rails I can see they were designed to handle 10mm pressures.

Enough of this nonsense and bickering. I am looking forward to a hopeful positive range report from Badge.

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BatteryOaksBilly
Junior Member

USA
125 Posts

Posted - October 23 2016 :  09:43:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

So, let me see if I've got this straight:

You're suggesting that Sig knows they've made a batch of guns that varies widely in quality and reliability--- since they wouldn't feel the need to hand-pick a suitable test gun, unless they knew that some of their guns were crap.

So they send out the good samples to gun writers.... then sell the rest to the general public; knowing full-well that many of them will disappoint their purchasers, thereby unleashing a torrent of negative comments and reviews; and damaging the Sig reputation in the process...

Is Sig really that greedy and/or stupid--- to take such a shallow, short-sighted view of their own best interest?

Is there no one in Sig management with the good business sense to point out: "Hey guys: we might save some $ and hassle by doing that; but aren't we hurting ourselves in the long run? In the final analysis, wouldn't honesty be the best policy here; even if it means we have to take a short-term financial hit? Does it make sense to risk damaging our reputation--- the one thing that 'money can't buy', that for a long time now has set us apart from so many others---in order to save a few bucks?"

Is Sig really that dumb?


I think this is the new American business scheme. Don't worry about next year, or even next quarter. How can we boost sales THIS week? No longer do companies look to the future, the bottom line has to get better today. I just finished my 50th year of employment with a small company that always planned for Future patient satisfication to drive the future of the company. If they had followed today's business model, I would never have had a job to go to. Those execs at Sig will move quickly on to other jobs in the industry and repeat this because it made money quickly but is a killer long term.

Billy Bruton..Carry every step..Shoot every day!
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