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NickR
New Member
80 Posts |
 Posted - October 29 2009 : 4:14:36 PM
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| I've read in several threads on this site about how the hostage rescue teams (e.g., Delta, Seals) clear rooms with M4 carbines, as opposed to using pistols. Do these operators use the standard 16" barrels on their M4 carbines, or do they use a shorter barrel? If shorter, what barrel length is the preferred length? |
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Evan
Administrator
27518 Posts |
Posted - October 29 2009 : 5:07:51 PM
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We had Colt M4's when I worked for NNSA and they were fine. FYI, military units have radically different rules of engagement and there is little crossover.
I wouldn't wory about what spec ops carry-we'll never use a claymore for breeching. |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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NickR
New Member
80 Posts |
Posted - October 29 2009 : 5:36:57 PM
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| My understanding is that special forces soldiers have tremendous freedom in weapon modifications. They can change things (e.g., barrel length) at will. I was wondering if they find it easier to wield the carbine in enclosed buildings with smaller barrels or whether this is a non-issue for them. |
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Evan
Administrator
27518 Posts |
Posted - October 29 2009 : 5:52:26 PM
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they play with alot of "Stuff" but when I've been around them their stuff was rather mundane AND operator's are often not gun people. A bud applied for an instructor's job for some high speed/low drag folks and was the only non Delta/non SEAL there and he outshot all of them with a Stock Beretta 9MM.
My office at Fort Chaffe was in a bldg where I was the only non military spec ops except for a guy from 10th Mountain Divison and only a former Ranger and myself were the one's had ever been in a gunfight. |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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Evan
Administrator
27518 Posts |
Posted - October 29 2009 : 5:54:04 PM
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| should add I hate buzz guns and see little value in full auto fire unless its a belt fed weapon. only fired my M4 on full auto when I did the full auto qual. |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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mojo
Advanced Member
USA
1518 Posts |
Posted - October 29 2009 : 7:32:10 PM
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Gotta agree about belt fed. I told my guys in Vietnam I'd shoot the first Sweet Old Boy firing full auto except for the M60 until I hollered "Rock 'N Roll." They believed me.  |
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials.
To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
-George Mason |
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JohnS
Advanced Member
USA
1428 Posts |
Posted - October 29 2009 : 8:04:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by NickR
I've read in several threads on this site about how the hostage rescue teams (e.g., Delta, Seals) clear rooms with M4 carbines, as opposed to using pistols. Do these operators use the standard 16" barrels on their M4 carbines, or do they use a shorter barrel? If shorter, what barrel length is the preferred length?
Standard M4's have 14.5" barrels. It's only civilian legal ones that have 16" barrels. They use the same barrel for just about everything. They don't walk around with a rucksack full of different length barrels. |
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator
USA
6232 Posts |
Posted - October 29 2009 : 9:04:36 PM
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As John said, 14.5"
You can have one too if you permanently attach the right flash hider which makes it 16+" long over all. I would get the latest ATF opinion on "permanently attached" however.
Or you can go shorter by registering it as a "Short Barrelled Rifle" SBR as long as you get the paperwork completed before proceeding.
Personally, I think a 16" carbine is just fine (though I do have a 14.5 one legally set up).
Jim H. |
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enidpd804
Advanced Member
1174 Posts |
Posted - October 29 2009 : 10:28:01 PM
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| It all kinda depends on what you mean by room clearing. If you mean static, sometimes rifles must be slung while you use your pistol. I almost always use my rifle on dynamic entries unless I'm the react officer. |
Warren |
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CharlieX
Senior Member
USA
697 Posts |
Posted - October 29 2009 : 10:54:45 PM
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| While barrel length is certainly an important aspect, I've always found the overall length of a weapon to be more important when considering a particular weapon for its suitability in tight/restricted clearance operations. |
CX
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Evan
Administrator
27518 Posts |
Posted - October 30 2009 : 11:02:51 AM
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| should have added that neither Delta or any other mil spec ops have hostage rescue as a primary role |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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mojo
Advanced Member
USA
1518 Posts |
Posted - October 30 2009 : 1:54:26 PM
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| There is a Federal CO who is a member of my gun club who fancies himself as a "firearms trainer" and "gun expert". His idea of the ideal "carbine" is an AR15 pistol. He places the buffer tube to his shoulder like a stock. It is so short that he busts his lip every time he fires it - - - good thing it's only a .223 a .308 might knock him out! Clowns like that give me the willies. |
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials.
To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
-George Mason |
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WR Moore
Junior Member
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - October 30 2009 : 5:08:18 PM
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Generally, the rifle is preferred due to ballistic delivery (including punching body armor), ammo capacity, greater flexibility in building clearing and better accuracy. The downsides include overall length and the disparity between bore line and sight line. There's nothing to choose from between 14.5 or 16 plus the flash hider.
Body armor aside, I think I'd prefer a 14 inch shotgun as primary. |
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Evan
Administrator
27518 Posts |
Posted - October 30 2009 : 6:21:05 PM
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| Fed sabot slugs |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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Chuck
Advanced Member
USA
2680 Posts |
Posted - October 31 2009 : 03:36:59 AM
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| I've done well over a thousand entries in my career. I never had an issue with my 16" Colt being in the way that a shorter carbine would have sufficed, at that point it becomes pistol time in my experience. |
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Kevin
Advanced Member
USA
1650 Posts |
Posted - October 31 2009 : 5:32:56 PM
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I've never felt the M4 barrel length to be a significant issue in entries or clearing operations - but I'm not doing high-speed low-drag CT operations. However, most SOF guys are now running either the Mk18 or the SCAR-L CQB (both about 10.5" barrels) when there's a known, dedicated entry mission.
The newest ammo in the SOF supply channels is A LOT less velocity dependent on proper operation, so losing velocity going to a shorter barrel is not much of an issue, and, in some of the TIGHT quarters the guys operate, shorter is an advantage.
Regards,
Kevin |
"Fast is fine, accuracy is final..." |
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Evan
Administrator
27518 Posts |
Posted - October 31 2009 : 6:28:38 PM
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| US Army is openly looking for a new carbine |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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CO
Advanced Member
USA
3731 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2009 : 02:10:25 AM
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PPsH 41...actually saw someone using one in Iraq as a CQB weapon. :) OK, so full auto is wasteful and unneccesary for most operations, but that's a cool toy for that.
When we cleared compartments on board ship for training, (both repelling boarders and boarding), we used the standard issue stuff, 870s, 1911s, and M-14s. M-14 is a BEAR in a compartment... |
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Matthew Courtney
Senior Member
USA
932 Posts |
Posted - November 01 2009 : 02:16:42 AM
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| One guy who taught a class that I took opined that if you were so close to cover or a corner that a 16 inch barrel was in your way, that you were to close to the cover or the corner. Of course, I am the type who is going to run from the bad guys, and then ambush them if they chase me. |
You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for.
Move in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.
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Tact81Cop
Advanced Member
USA
1399 Posts |
Posted - November 16 2009 : 6:49:39 PM
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| Remember that in an non-permissive environment you may end up in a fight at any point from insertion/breaking wire to the target. Therefore using a tiny-little-entry-only-gun generally doesn't make sense. As the SCAR and Mk18's start making their way into the inventory they'll become more prevelant but in SOF circles the M4A1 still is predominant. |
Molon labe |
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Carbine barrel length for room clearing
