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Luke68
Starting Member
USA
12 Posts |
 Posted - October 21 2009 : 7:24:13 PM
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| This is another new guy question, but when your primary is empty and locked open do you release the slide on an empty chamber and reholster or reholster with the slide open? I'm sure I'm thinking about this too hard but I know some of you will have pitty on me. |
Therefore...let us resist evil, and whatsoever evil we cannot resist with our words, such as rebellions and dissensions, let us resist them with our swords, that we may retain our freedom. -Pahoran 62 BC |
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Evan
Administrator
26750 Posts |
Posted - October 21 2009 : 7:38:42 PM
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1st of all there are no stupid questions unless after finding out I have 7 kids you ask for my recommendations on birth control.
We should reload or transition when we want to not when we have to. I carry the primary in a left-handed iwb. second gun is in right-handed front pocket holster. Two Glock M17 mags in a Don Hume double mag pouch and an HKS speedloader in a Don Hume Six Pack pouch. Both guns are loaded with DPX. With winter almost here I'll hopefull move the J frame to an outside coat pocket and add my hopefully soon to arrive right handed holster for my Glock 30SF |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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fatbaldguy
Junior Member
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - October 21 2009 : 7:46:34 PM
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| either reload it or drop it and draw your backup - something I, for one, need to practice more |
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Luke68
Starting Member
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - October 21 2009 : 8:06:01 PM
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| I wasn't sure if dropping my pistol is a valid decision. I guess I’m struggling with the idea that pulling the secondary is better than reloading the primary. If the primary fails for some reason then it’s a no brainer. |
Therefore...let us resist evil, and whatsoever evil we cannot resist with our words, such as rebellions and dissensions, let us resist them with our swords, that we may retain our freedom. -Pahoran 62 BC |
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Evan
Administrator
26750 Posts |
Posted - October 21 2009 : 8:07:47 PM
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| get a cardboard box and put some rags in it for the range, BUT make it a big box so you're not focused on getting the gun into the box instead of just letting go. |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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fatbaldguy
Junior Member
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - October 21 2009 : 8:18:20 PM
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| It is a very valid question that I haven't seen discussed before. If your primary is empty and you are are going for your BUG what do you do with the first gun? |
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fatbaldguy
Junior Member
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - October 21 2009 : 8:26:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Evan
get a cardboard box and put some rags in it for the range, BUT make it a big box so you're not focused on getting the gun into the box instead of just letting go.
I've used a clothes basket with a piece of foam rubber, but the concept is the same. Actually dropping the gun is difficult to get used to when you have had weapons retention training for several decades. |
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Luke68
Starting Member
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - October 21 2009 : 8:49:43 PM
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| If you drop the primary then no doubt drawing the secondary is faster. I couldn’t figure out how re-holstering the primary and drawing the secondary was faster than reloading the primary. |
Therefore...let us resist evil, and whatsoever evil we cannot resist with our words, such as rebellions and dissensions, let us resist them with our swords, that we may retain our freedom. -Pahoran 62 BC |
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spwenger
Average Member
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - October 21 2009 : 10:26:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Luke68
If you drop the primary then no doubt drawing the secondary is faster. I couldn’t figure out how re-holstering the primary and drawing the secondary was faster than reloading the primary.
That may depend on what you carry and where you carry it. I carry a revolver behind each hip and don't see how stuffing the first one back into its holster while I'm drawing the second is going to slow me down that much. What it does seem to do is slow getting the new support hand onto the second gun. So, if it's close enough to shoot one-handed, I might be able to retain the empty gun. If I need to get two hands on the second gun, I may be calling Craig Spegel for a new set of Boot Grips after the first gun hits the ground, I get it back out of the evidence locker, etc., etc.
It gets trickier if the third revolver, in the left, front pants pocket gets involved... |
Stephen P. Wenger
Firearm safety - it's a matter for education, not legislation. |
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WR Moore
Junior Member
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - October 23 2009 : 9:59:14 PM
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| I recall an IPSC match many moons ago where one stage required dropping the empty pistol into a large, padded box and finishing the problem with a weapon grabbed off a table. It was truly amazing how many folks had a canary over the prospect of dropping their primary. |
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Nicolas Deem
Average Member
440 Posts |
Posted - October 24 2009 : 10:51:59 AM
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| I train myself to shoot to slide lock then grab my Kahr CW9 in my vest cover with my left hand. Then drop that when it is spent and grab my J frame in my left front pants pcoket. When that goes empty then I drop that and go back to my Glock 21 and reload it. But I hope it never gets that far. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst. |
"We don't go to work, we go to war."
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stdatdeacon
Junior Member
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - October 24 2009 : 11:37:43 PM
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The questions posed, and the various answers given were excellent. However, there are no easy answers to what one would do. There are far too many situations to consider. The simple and straight forward answer is to drop the empty weapon and draw the next one, and continue the fight.
Dealing with a confrontation is usually neither simple nor straight forward. What would I do? I have no real answer without having been put into a specific situation.
Would the simple and straight forward answer work? Of course, but would it be the wisest? I don't know. How many BG's are there? Where am I at when it all starts? What are my options? Do I have adequate cover? Can I extricate myself out of the mess? Am I committed for the long haul? Who do I have with me?
Each situation has so many dynamics that can change. What started with one BG suddenly expands to two or more. What started with six BG's suddenly changes to one committed BG while the others exit the fray.
In all of my confrontations, I have never gone to slide lock-back, but my training employs use of all of my weapons. If I had the time, I would retain my empty weapons. If I didn't, I would try to deposit them out of sight if I had the extra few seconds it would take. If I was in the fight of my life, I would not give it a second thought about dropping it to draw the next weapon.
I wish there were simple answers, but there are no simple confrontations. My military and federal training taught me to react to the situation. The concept of "Shoot, Move, and Communicate" has served me well. The other concept of "Run Away If You Can" has served as well. |
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom — go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!” Samuel Adams |
Edited by - stdatdeacon on October 24 2009 11:41:31 PM |
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Deputy25
Average Member
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - October 25 2009 : 1:48:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolas Deem
I train myself to shoot to slide lock then grab my Kahr CW9 in my vest cover with my left hand. Then drop that when it is spent and grab my J frame in my left front pants pcoket. When that goes empty then I drop that and go back to my Glock 21 and reload it. But I hope it never gets that far. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
My routine is pretty much the same as Nicolas, except I'm using a Glock 31, 33, and a 442. I am hoping that by the time all three handguns are empty the action is over, or I'm holding my AR. |
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Glenn
Senior Member
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - October 25 2009 : 1:54:12 PM
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| I seem to recall a military term GHTO AOP which means get the out of the area of operation there's no shame in running away if the stuff has really hit the proverbial fan being a civilian with no law enforcement powers I'd be really hesitant about a prolonged engagement, because the local prosecutor would almost certainly try to twist that against me in court later on. But that being said if it meant making it back to my family in one piece I would drop the empty weapon and grab either the 642 or Bulgarian Makarov with out hesistating. |
Semper Paratus |
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jle3030
Advanced Member
USA
2267 Posts |
Posted - October 25 2009 : 8:09:38 PM
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Having run some drills on the clock, I've come to consider the New York Reload to be a situational, rather than a default technique.
My transition time to a second gun is comparable to my autoloader speedload *if* I'm carrying the second gun on the belt, weak side. If the BUG is in the left front pocket, as it usually is, then reloading the primary is distinctly faster. Even more so if I have to work the gun out of the pocket while kneeling behind cover.
If I choose to reload my autoloader primary, I'm still shooting my best gun two handed, strong hand. If I want to end up with the BUG in my strong hand I have to either crossdraw or draw left handed and then change hands. Otherwise I find myself shooting left handed with my second best gun. All to save a theoretical second or two. I say theoretical, because, again, the speed differential is not there for me.
My usual carry combo is a G19, a spare mag, a 642 in the left front pocket, and a Safariland speedloader in the right front. If I shoot the G19 dry (16 rounds), reflexively drop it, and draw the 642, I only have five more rounds before I have to decide whether to dig in the pocket for another five or to pull the 15 round Glock mag and scrounge around on the deck for that Glock I just dropped. Assuming I'm even still in the same location.
Malfunction? Unlikely with this Glock. I can taprack faster than I can reload or transition. Still, I can see a transition may be in order here, becaust taprack isn't a guaranteed fix.
I also ran drills with a revolver as primary. Long story short: this is where the NY Reload was devised and where it really shines. With *revolvers* the NY Reload becomes my default technique. Actually, given the tactical edge of having a hand on the snubby revolver in the pants or coat pocket, that snubby may well *be* the de facto primary until it's shot dry and dropped. The main gun in the strong side belt holster then ends up being the NY Reload.
I'm a big believer in BUGs, but the reliability, mag capacity, and survival level shootability are the main reasons I carry a G19 as primary. Since I personally don't get any real time edge from transitioning to the lesser gun, I consider dumping an empty Glock as being another version of throwing the baby out with the bath water. YMMV, of course.
Jeff
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AuburnFootball
Junior Member
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - October 28 2009 : 4:31:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Evan
get a cardboard box and put some rags in it for the range, BUT make it a big box so you're not focused on getting the gun into the box instead of just letting go.
I was in a training class once with a bunch of guys from some surrounding departments. One of the officers was from the same agency the lead instructor was from. During drills, the officer would gently drop the mags or set down the pistol when transitioning to a bug. The instructor told the officer several times not to baby the guns and mags; drop them in the mud and keep fighting.
After about the third time he said something to the officer, he snatched the empty Glock and threw it -over- the berm and into a gravel pit. He stated "We issued you that gun. We don't want it back pretty. We want you to retire with it, which means it will have scars, scratches, and dings."
Point made. The guns I carry are not pretty! 
--Richard |
"We must reject the idea that every time a law is broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions." --Ronald Reagan |
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Evan
Administrator
26750 Posts |
Posted - October 28 2009 : 4:57:02 PM
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I metioned the large box because when I was the training Sgt at SRT I could not get my guys to drop the mags and even guns-We had paid more for the P7M13's than the MP5's. I would routinely throw mine into the back stop from the 25 yard line WHEN IT WAS SNOWING and leave it there.
How many carpenter's do you think stay up late polishing their hammer? |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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Russ Larges
Moderator
USA
1612 Posts |
Posted - October 29 2009 : 09:02:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jle3030
Having run some drills on the clock, I've come to consider the New York Reload to be a situational, rather than a default technique.
My transition time to a second gun is comparable to my autoloader speedload *if* I'm carrying the second gun on the belt, weak side. If the BUG is in the left front pocket, as it usually is, then reloading the primary is distinctly faster. Even more so if I have to work the gun out of the pocket while kneeling behind cover.
If I choose to reload my autoloader primary, I'm still shooting my best gun two handed, strong hand. If I want to end up with the BUG in my strong hand I have to either crossdraw or draw left handed and then change hands. Otherwise I find myself shooting left handed with my second best gun. All to save a theoretical second or two. I say theoretical, because, again, the speed differential is not there for me.
My usual carry combo is a G19, a spare mag, a 642 in the left front pocket, and a Safariland speedloader in the right front. If I shoot the G19 dry (16 rounds), reflexively drop it, and draw the 642, I only have five more rounds before I have to decide whether to dig in the pocket for another five or to pull the 15 round Glock mag and scrounge around on the deck for that Glock I just dropped. Assuming I'm even still in the same location.
Malfunction? Unlikely with this Glock. I can taprack faster than I can reload or transition. Still, I can see a transition may be in order here, becaust taprack isn't a guaranteed fix.
I also ran drills with a revolver as primary. Long story short: this is where the NY Reload was devised and where it really shines. With *revolvers* the NY Reload becomes my default technique. Actually, given the tactical edge of having a hand on the snubby revolver in the pants or coat pocket, that snubby may well *be* the de facto primary until it's shot dry and dropped. The main gun in the strong side belt holster then ends up being the NY Reload.
I'm a big believer in BUGs, but the reliability, mag capacity, and survival level shootability are the main reasons I carry a G19 as primary. Since I personally don't get any real time edge from transitioning to the lesser gun, I consider dumping an empty Glock as being another version of throwing the baby out with the bath water. YMMV, of course.
Jeff
Jeff pretty much sums up my experience with reloads vs. backups. I can reload faster then I can dig the 642 out of my left front pocket.
Still, the little gun is allways there .
Russ
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The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper |
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spwenger
Average Member
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - October 29 2009 : 3:22:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AuburnFootball
After about the third time he said something to the officer, he snatched the empty Glock and threw it -over- the berm and into a gravel pit. He stated "We issued you that gun. We don't want it back pretty. We want you to retire with it, which means it will have scars, scratches, and dings."
Point made. The guns I carry are not pretty!
--Richard
I recall Larry Nichols, rangemaster for Burbank [CA] PD, telling me that every time he issues a Glock to a newly hired officer, he walks him out to the range and instructs him to throw it as far downrange as he can. After the officer recovers his pistol, Larry tells him, "It's not new any more, don't worry about scratching it." |
Stephen P. Wenger
Firearm safety - it's a matter for education, not legislation. |
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Transition to 2nd or 3rd gun question.
