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Corky
Junior Member
151 Posts |
 Posted - June 12 2009 : 8:01:10 PM
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| I own a pre-series '70 National Match .45 ACP (14xxx-NM), which is in excellent condition. I am wondering if its original recoil spring should be replaced with the standard 16 lb. spring if other than target swc ammunition is to be fired in it. Under no conditions do I plan to use +P ammo in this fine pistol. But I've read that this version of the 1911 is made for target ammo only and that even standard velocity ball is hard on it. Is there any truth to this? Thank you very much for any comments. --c |
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JohnS
Advanced Member
USA
1430 Posts |
Posted - June 12 2009 : 10:19:45 PM
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| If it's a NM, it's made for ball ammo. You can't use SWC's in a National Matches(DCM) match, only in NRA matches. |
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Corky
Junior Member
151 Posts |
Posted - June 13 2009 : 2:42:14 PM
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| Thanks for your response, John. I asked the questions because of a Web blog assertion that the postwar NM, introduced in '57, had a lighter slide so that it would function well with wadcutters; consequently it was not for hot loads and was thought of as a wadcutter only pistol by most shooters. According to this article it was only with the Series 70 that the Gold Cup NM was again built to handle stronger loads. --c |
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Taylor
Junior Member
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - June 13 2009 : 2:54:47 PM
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| If I remember right there are some out there with lighter slides but I do not remember the years of production for them. I think I have the dates of manufacture here in one of my books but will have to look it up. |
Pat Taylor |
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator
USA
6232 Posts |
Posted - June 13 2009 : 8:45:25 PM
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Even in the old days some National Matches came with two springs.
I have a 1966 NM that came with only one (I have the original box and test target - which was fired with ball ammo). Mine had a 16.5 lb spring in it. Some come with about a 10 lb spring extra for wadcutters (that is important due to those short stubby target loads needing a slower acting slide to feed).
That said, I would not fire ball in any NM built after WW-II without putting a shock buff in the gun and making sure it has at least a 16.5 lb spring - I would rather it have an 18.
I had this discussion with a Colt V.P. who was shooting in the Second Chance match (great guy!) and told him that it was not a question of "if" Gold Cup sight would fall off (the front falls off the rear can either lose the pin or shoot the blade loose or both) but "when" it would happen.
The next day he came up to me with his now sightless Gold Cup - the front sight fell off while he was in the middle of his run. He also found out later about the rear.
The next year he gave me a handfull of hardened roll pins that they had come up with for the rear sight (that still does not keep the blade from shooting loose) and not too long thereafter they started using the wide tenon on the front sight - that seems to work.
My 1966 NM had not been shot much - very little blue wear. Yet the Eliason sight blade was already loose. I took it off and replaced it with a drop in Millet for shooting (no mod so I can just put it back in to maintain its collectibility). I replaced the front sight - there is a little secret to getting front sights to stay on but you probably cannot save the original sight. I was able to find new Colt NM front sights at Brownells...dont know if they still have them or not.
I do think the shock buff (which I do not like to put in guns for reliability reasons) might help one keep the NM front sight on. I would certainly do it on a fine collector gun...might save the rear sight also.
Hope this helps.
Jim |
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Corky
Junior Member
151 Posts |
Posted - June 13 2009 : 9:10:26 PM
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| Thanks Mr. H. Most helpful. Might you know if the pre-series 70 NM actually has a lighter slide than that of the Series 70? --c |
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator
USA
6232 Posts |
Posted - June 14 2009 : 08:34:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Corky
Thanks Mr. H. Most helpful. Might you know if the pre-series 70 NM actually has a lighter slide than that of the Series 70? --c
Mine does. But I dont know if I can say they all do. Take the slide off and look at the area in the top in front of the locking lug recesses. If there is a "dished out" area between there and about 1/2" behind the front end (where the barrel bushing fits) then it is a light slide.
Some even have the lightening cuts of a L.W. Commander back at the back - You can see the exposed Extractor channel from underneath.
A light slide is not necessarily a bad thing - less beating on the frame - but it makes a good spring more important.
There is another thing common to N.M. guns (post war) - the Main Spring (powers the hammer) is often weaker (to get a good trigger). The unintended consequence of that is that the gun comes unlocked very slightly quicker. I would not replace it but it is another reason a good recoil spring and buffer might be a good thing for a nice old gun.
My N.M, which I actually have killed a couple of wild boar with, has an arched housing with a full power spring (easy to change back to the original which I kept stock), a 20 lb Wolff Spring (today I would put in an 18 lb spring), a Millet replacement rear sight (drop in - no mods) and a replaced front sight (which you cannot tell from the outside - careful inspection of the inside would reveal that it has a much heartier stake on the bottom), and a Hiett .090 Shock buff.
I normally do not recommend shock buffs in serious gun but I want this one to last. I should point out that I shoot ammo in it that is considerably more potent than normal ball though. All of those things are necessary for that.
Jim H. |
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Corky
Junior Member
151 Posts |
Posted - June 14 2009 : 09:16:45 AM
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Mr. Higginbotham,
I am copying this thread for my files. Your help is most appreciated. --c
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator
USA
6232 Posts |
Posted - June 21 2009 : 9:45:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Corky
Mr. Higginbotham,
I am copying this thread for my files. Your help is most appreciated. --c
There aint no "Mr."s here  |
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NE450No2
New Member
78 Posts |
Posted - June 22 2009 : 02:06:22 AM
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| With factory 45 ACP ammo I use an 18 lb spring. |
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dubiousone
Average Member
286 Posts |
Posted - June 24 2009 : 09:47:51 AM
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| As I recall, the NM like the Gold cup had some differences from a standard 1911. Lighter recoil, hammer sear & firing pin spring and a special hammer/sear arrangement. The sear surfaces are quite small compared to standard and the GC sear had a tiny spring to help the issue of hammer follow. a Steady diet of hardball will eat these "target" sears a lot faster. Changing the recoil spring is a must of you shoot hardball in these, the stock spring is not enough. You should also change the firing pin spring as the lighter one when combined with a heavy recoil spring can cause slamfires. You might also consider changing the hammer spring, some believe the hammer spring weight affects the timing of the slide (feeding/extraction issues). |
Expert? I ain't no expert, just a
Reasonably Knowledgeable Individual... |
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NE450No2
New Member
78 Posts |
Posted - July 17 2009 : 01:53:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dubiousone
As I recall, the NM like the Gold cup had some differences from a standard 1911. Lighter recoil, hammer sear & firing pin spring and a special hammer/sear arrangement. The sear surfaces are quite small compared to standard and the GC sear had a tiny spring to help the issue of hammer follow. a Steady diet of hardball will eat these "target" sears a lot faster. Changing the recoil spring is a must of you shoot hardball in these, the stock spring is not enough. You should also change the firing pin spring as the lighter one when combined with a heavy recoil spring can cause slamfires. You might also consider changing the hammer spring, some believe the hammer spring weight affects the timing of the slide (feeding/extraction issues).
You are correct. The Hammer Spring is an important componet in the functioning of a 1911.
If you shoot full power loads in a National Match/Gold Cup you must also change the hollow roll pin that holds the rear sight on, to a solid pin.
Bomar used to make a sight that was a direct replacement for the Gold Cup sight. |
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Pre-Series '70 NM Question
