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Taylor
Junior Member
USA
141 Posts |
 Posted - April 05 2009 : 8:32:09 PM
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| If any 1911 shooters on here are into the 9 x 23 loading I went up to Knob Creek today and they had one in the case at the ranges shop. $550 used , I think these are the ones with the extra locking lug on the barrel. |
Pat Taylor |
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator
USA
6232 Posts |
Posted - April 08 2009 : 08:25:42 AM
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Colt? Springfield?
I dont think either has an extra lug as a Super .38 or a 9mm barrel will fit. At least it does in the Colt.
Remind me next time you come up as you will likely see one.
Jim |
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Taylor
Junior Member
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - April 08 2009 : 2:41:36 PM
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| Springfield , sorry I forgot that detail. I read somewhere that Springfield used an extra lug but have never owned one or taken one down to look and verify that. |
Pat Taylor |
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Taylor
Junior Member
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - April 09 2009 : 02:50:56 AM
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Found it...on Burns site with the 9x23 info.
"The Colt 9x23's are simply rebarreled (with a heavy barrel) and resprung 38 Supers. The Springfield guns are a heavy barrel gun with integral ramp and an extra locking lug on the barrel."
If the firearms situation was better as far as what the gov`t has planned and present supply maybe I would have purchased the pistol while at the shoot over the weekend but as things are I guess I will stick with what I have supplies for. Hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.
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Pat Taylor |
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator
USA
6232 Posts |
Posted - April 11 2009 : 7:37:16 PM
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I have never looked into the Springer myself. I think all of those were made during the period when they made those horrid square front straps and dust covers and I cannot abide them.
Fortunately Springfield came to their senses but I dont think they made any 9X23s after that. I could be wrong.
Jim |
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Taylor
Junior Member
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - April 11 2009 : 11:10:19 PM
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Up until I saw the one in the case the other day I had not actually laid eyes on a 9x23 so my info isn`t anything to be depended on , just repeating what I have read for discussions sake.
There was also a Union Switch and Signal a couple of showcases away from the 9x23 , a lot more zeros on the tag for that one.
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Pat Taylor |
Edited by - Taylor on April 11 2009 11:10:58 PM |
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XTrooper
Junior Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - June 15 2009 : 05:58:51 AM
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The 9x23 Winchester is a great cartridge with excellent ballistics. Winchester factory ammo (125 gr. Silvertips and 124 gr. soft points) launch their bullets at an honest 1450+ fps out of my Colt Lightweight Commander. That's real .357 Magnum power in a 10 shot semi-auto pistol.
My 9x23 Colt LWT Commander (converted from .38 Super) has been my everyday carry pistol for a number of years now. I have complete confidence in it. |
Steve: NJ State Trooper #3936 (retired 4/1/91) Honor - Duty - Fidelity
Life Member: VFW, VVA, NRA
Right way's the hardest. Wrong way's the easiest. A rule of nature like water seeks the path of least resistance. So you get crooked rivers and crooked men. |
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator
USA
6232 Posts |
Posted - June 21 2009 : 10:01:55 PM
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My partner bought a Colt which came with both a 9X23 barrel and a Super .38 barrel.
To our great amazement, winchester white box 125 JSP clockes 1550 fps from his gun (it goes 1475 from my Bar-sto barrel).
First JSP handgun bullet I have seen that expands (well deforms) - I shot an 8-point buck with mine and the bullet went to about .62 caliber (but not a classic mushroom).
Oddly enough the 9X23 Silver Tip is not quite as hot....but you wouldn't want to get in the way of one 
Jim |
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Melvis
Moderator
USA
659 Posts |
Posted - June 29 2009 : 6:11:56 PM
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| I converted a 9mm Springfield 1911 to 9x23. It's a nifty little shooter that delivers near 357 revolver velocity with much less recoil. I think the gun got a little more accurate after the conversion. It's a gun for those who don't mind loading their own, as ammo runs from scarce to unavailable. |
Results, not reputations. |
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator
USA
6232 Posts |
Posted - July 01 2009 : 10:02:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Melvis
I converted a 9mm Springfield 1911 to 9x23. It's a nifty little shooter that delivers near 357 revolver velocity with much less recoil. I think the gun got a little more accurate after the conversion. It's a gun for those who don't mind loading their own, as ammo runs from scarce to unavailable.
While I am not a big fan of the medium bores, I sure find the 9X23 to be fascinating. I have used it at night indoors and the factory fodder has no more blast and flash (true enough that factor is probably overrated by some) than a .45. Indeed it is half that of a typical .357 Sig but yet gets 200 fps more velocity (on average for factory rounds - some .357 Sig loads get close).
All in all, an 11 shot gun that surpases 4" .357 magnum (most 9X23s I have chronographed clock in excess of 1500 fps from a 5" auto with Winchester factor ammo - though I have seen as low as 1450).
On top of that you can drop in a 9mm barrel and practice cheap...what's not to like?
Jim H.
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SCG1911
Junior Member
USA
245 Posts |
Posted - July 02 2009 : 06:39:23 AM
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+1 on what Jim H. said and I want to add that the round is a flat shooter with less than a 3" drop at 100yds while maintaining +1100ft/sec and +350 ft/lbs of enegy, nearly that of a 45acp at the muzzle. This makes it a very good round to transition to from a long gun to continue the fight at longer yardages than most handguns rounds run out of steam. Couple all of the positives of having .357 mag performance and fast reloads makes a winner in my opinion. I carry two, one as primary and then a backup in the my favorite pistol platform using the same magazines.
Just maybe if we can make enough noise regarding this round we'll get some of the pistol makers attention and start making them again.
my .02
Steve |
"Political Correctness and Complacency are our greatest enemies today!" |
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kcc1948
Junior Member
110 Posts |
Posted - July 02 2009 : 10:09:53 AM
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Interesting thread. To modify my Colt 38 Super, besides a new 9x23 barrel, what do I need to do? What recoil spring weight? Do the 38 Super mags work? Thanks.
...Ken |
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XTrooper
Junior Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - July 03 2009 : 07:26:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kcc1948
Interesting thread. To modify my Colt 38 Super, besides a new 9x23 barrel, what do I need to do? What recoil spring weight? Do the 38 Super mags work? Thanks.
...Ken
Hi, Ken. Well, if you're lucky, you won't even have to change your barrel. In my case, the .38 Super chamber of my Colt LWT Commander's barrel was too tight to chamber a 9x23 Win round, so I had to buy a Nowlin barrel. However, many times the 9x23 will chamber and can be safely fired from a .38 Super barrel.
Regarding recoil spring strength, after some experimentation, I found that the best for my Commander was a Wolff 20# spring (factory .38 Super spring is 16#). In the case of a .38 Super Government Model, the factory spring is 14#, so I would try a 17# or 18# spring as a starting point.
The .38 Super and 9x23 Winchester use the same magazines.
I've read that some had to adjust or replace their extractor as part of the conversion, but I don't believe this is necessary in the vast majority of cases. |
Steve: NJ State Trooper #3936 (retired 4/1/91) Honor - Duty - Fidelity
Life Member: VFW, VVA, NRA
Right way's the hardest. Wrong way's the easiest. A rule of nature like water seeks the path of least resistance. So you get crooked rivers and crooked men. |
Edited by - XTrooper on July 03 2009 07:34:13 AM |
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SCG1911
Junior Member
USA
245 Posts |
Posted - July 05 2009 : 01:36:11 AM
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In one case I had to switch back to a standard length firingpin spring to allow more striking power for the rifle primers used in 9x23win.
Best
Seve |
"Political Correctness and Complacency are our greatest enemies today!" |
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator
USA
6232 Posts |
Posted - July 05 2009 : 12:12:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kcc1948
Interesting thread. To modify my Colt 38 Super, besides a new 9x23 barrel, what do I need to do? What recoil spring weight? Do the 38 Super mags work? Thanks.
...Ken
I dont make recommendations (there are far too many variables) but I use a 20 lb spring (I have used 18.5) in my 9X23s (I have 4 of them now). Take care that you are not using an old Colt barrel that did headpaces on the little semi-rim rather than the case mouth - you will have excessive head space and at 50,000 PSI the 9X23 is nothiing to trifle with!
also make sure the gun has not been modified by a previous owner or custom gunsmith as to the feedway in the barrel - the cartridge demands support at the rear (this does not however mean a ramped barrel).
Jim H. |
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator
USA
6232 Posts |
Posted - July 05 2009 : 12:14:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SCG1911
In one case I had to switch back to a standard length firingpin spring to allow more striking power for the rifle primers used in 9x23win.
Best
Seve
The force on the firing pin of a 1911 is so over the top I would not worry about it. I used S.R. primers in my Super .38s and my own wildcat "9mm Express" (a 9 X 24mm) for over 30 years and used Wolf extra power F.P. springs.
Jim H. |
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retDAC
Average Member
USA
301 Posts |
Posted - July 06 2009 : 03:33:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham
The force on the firing pin of a 1911 is so over the top I would not worry about it. I used S.R. primers in my Super .38s and my own wildcat "9mm Express" (a 9 X 24mm) for over 30 years and used Wolf extra power F.P. springs.
Jim H.
What was the parent case for your "9mm Express", Jim? |
Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Best of Luck in Your Honorable Endeavors!
Dave McDaniel |
Edited by - retDAC on July 07 2009 03:53:08 AM |
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator
USA
6232 Posts |
Posted - July 08 2009 : 9:30:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by retDAC
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham
The force on the firing pin of a 1911 is so over the top I would not worry about it. I used S.R. primers in my Super .38s and my own wildcat "9mm Express" (a 9 X 24mm) for over 30 years and used Wolf extra power F.P. springs.
Jim H.
What was the parent case for your "9mm Express", Jim?
.223 Remington. Dont get the impression it was any great new idea. It was born of me being cheap and I stole the original idea from Jeff Cooper.
At the time I had a standard Colt Govt. Model in Super .38. Those headspaced on the little rim and the area at the front of the chamber had some "freebore". I squared this up with a hand reamer and it turned out to be 1mm longer than a Super .38 case (which is 23mm).
It had the benefit of adding about 1 gr. of powder capacity but that was coincidental, not by design.
I never did get the 1750 fps Jeff got (but he had a 7" barrel) but I did get some impressive velocities for a medium bore pistol.
I liked the idea enough that I actually cut a 1911 chamber 1mm longer (the idea was so that you could not chamber the round in an unmodified 1911) and called that the ".45 Express" (my notes for this are dated 1974). I used .308 cases of course. It pushed a 240 gr cast trucated cone to 1250 fps.
A little later Tom Givens and I colaborated on a wildcat for a Browning using a .35 Remington case to make a .41 auto with an O.A.L. of 1.16" to fit in double stack mags...but we never got around to getting a gun modified to shoot it. Later the .41 A.E. came out and made that moot but I think our round was better. I did drop our prototype round into a .41 A.E. chamber - it fit perfectly.
Just stuff to tinker with when I had time.
Jim H. |
Edited by - Jim Higginbotham on July 08 2009 9:31:29 PM |
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Corky
Junior Member
151 Posts |
Posted - July 09 2009 : 07:09:03 AM
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| I own a EAA Witness in .38 Super that I am considering converting to 9x23. The standard .38 Super spring is 14 lbs. Would it be advisable to replace it with an 18 lb. spring? Thanks. --c |
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retDAC
Average Member
USA
301 Posts |
Posted - July 10 2009 : 03:29:33 AM
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Thanks for the info, Jim. After I posted my query, I remembered the .223 case would work. I have an article by Cooper on his version using a .38 Super barrel chambered to headspace on the case mouth and he cites George Nonte as originally suggesting the .223 case. You went a step further and found a simple, cheap way to use original Super barrels. Bravo!
You may have also been the first, or at least one of the very first, with the other two cartridges. Again Kudos! |
Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Best of Luck in Your Honorable Endeavors!
Dave McDaniel |
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator
USA
6232 Posts |
Posted - July 11 2009 : 12:16:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by retDAC
Thanks for the info, Jim. After I posted my query, I remembered the .223 case would work. I have an article by Cooper on his version using a .38 Super barrel chambered to headspace on the case mouth and he cites George Nonte as originally suggesting the .223 case. You went a step further and found a simple, cheap way to use original Super barrels. Bravo!
You may have also been the first, or at least one of the very first, with the other two cartridges. Again Kudos!
Jim |
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator
USA
6232 Posts |
Posted - July 11 2009 : 12:18:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Corky
I own a EAA Witness in .38 Super that I am considering converting to 9x23. The standard .38 Super spring is 14 lbs. Would it be advisable to replace it with an 18 lb. spring? Thanks. --c
I did that with mine. I should caution though that the CZ is not as forgiving of abuse as a 1911.
I have only fired about 100 rounds of 9X23 out of mine but it took no other mods and the 18lb spring works with Super .38.
Jim |
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Corky
Junior Member
151 Posts |
Posted - July 11 2009 : 4:51:05 PM
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| Thanks, Jim, for the reply. Could you elaborate on the "not as forgiving of abuse as the 1911" comment? Do you have information on damage done to a Witness by a lot, whatever that might mean, of shooting with this 9X23 conversion? My Witness Super is a reliable horse and I don't want to run it into the ground. I'm assuming that occasion use woud be acceptable. Correct? --c |
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator
USA
6232 Posts |
Posted - July 13 2009 : 08:47:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Corky
Thanks, Jim, for the reply. Could you elaborate on the "not as forgiving of abuse as the 1911" comment? Do you have information on damage done to a Witness by a lot, whatever that might mean, of shooting with this 9X23 conversion? My Witness Super is a reliable horse and I don't want to run it into the ground. I'm assuming that occasion use woud be acceptable. Correct? --c
This is sort of a mixed blessing. The Tanfoglio made guns (including EAA) are made of some really hard steel - so wear is not much of an issue - but with high use they sometimes crack slides and frames - but high use is just that well over 50,000 rounds.
My CZ clones have been pretty reliable also and while I have seen broken ones I have not had that happen.
Jim H. |
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9x23
