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CharlieX
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - January 19 2011 :  6:52:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by djwarner

Hey Charlie, since you updated your listing, I have a question.

I have a somewhat rare car that just turned that ugly age (10-20 years old). A lot of the car buffs dote on Mobil1 0W-40 saying it was the only grade Mobil1 made from Group IV stock.

This year-end, a national parts chain had a sale for the stuff on their website. The picture on their website showed "European Car Formula" on the bottle which was supposed to be the "good" stuff so I bought 12 quarts with pick-up at the local store. When I went to retrieve it, the part number was different. They said it was the only stock they had, and that was what the online system called for.

I noticed your post where you said they reformulated away from Group IV so I pulled out a bottle and sure enough, the "European Car Formula" was on the label.

You seem to know their formulation, so what's the verdict? "Tried and True" or "New and Confused"? Do I put in the crankcase or do I have several hundred lifetimes supply of gun lube?



DJ,

Hard tellin' what EM is doing these days.

The "old" M1 0w40 formulation seemed to have strong Group IV properties (high temperature resistance, low pour point, wicked VI) until about three years ago. Have a look at the PDS (product data sheet) if you can find it. If you see really high flash point numbers and really low pour points with a high VI (over 150-ish), that's a good indicator that you are looking at a PAO/POE stock, but it is not a guarantee. Like most businesses, profit margin dictates product composition and what must fit into a price point and G-IV/Vs are expensive meaning that you'll pay more. Look at their "new" 0w50 and you'll see what I mean. (like $16.00/quart! yeesh!)

Today's G-III+ basestocks will do everything that the "average" consumer needs and there's your answer. Unless you plan on beating the heck outta your car and running it ragged (and I don't think that you plan on doing that), what you've got should be just fine for your car. I'd use it.

As for EM's departure from G-IVs in many (actually most) of their offerings, I've decided that my next purchase for "gun oil" once my supply of M1 20w50 (prior formulation) runs out will be:

RED LINE 20W50
PP: -49.00 F
FP: +489.20 F
V100: 138.00 cSt
V212: 18.60 cSt
TSR: 538.20 F
B: 20 ppm
P: 2100 ppm
Mo: 500 ppm
Zn: 2500 ppm
P: 2100 ppm
VI: 152

The suspense was killin' you wasn't it?



Edited by - CharlieX on January 19 2011 7:00:20 PM
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NE450No2
Average Member

459 Posts

Posted - January 19 2011 :  8:27:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well my thoughts are this...

I have used several different products over the years...

But Truth be told, I have found that if you could have only one "Gun Juice", make mine BreakFree.
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djwarner
Junior Member

USA
234 Posts

Posted - January 19 2011 :  8:58:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks CharlieX,

EMs online PDS doesn't list all the items you list but it does give the critical ones you mention:

Mobil1 0W-40

PP: ??
FP: 446 F
V100: 75 cSt
V212: 13.5 cSt
TSR: ??
B: ??
P: .1%
Mo: ??
Zn: ??
VI: 185

If it ain't G-IV, it's a good excuse for one.

NON NOBIS TANTUM NATI
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CharlieX
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - January 20 2011 :  4:30:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by djwarner

Thanks CharlieX,

EMs online PDS doesn't list all the items you list but it does give the critical ones you mention:

Mobil1 0W-40

PP: ??
FP: 446 F
V100: 75 cSt
V212: 13.5 cSt
TSR: ??
B: ??
P: .1%
Mo: ??
Zn: ??
VI: 185

If it ain't G-IV, it's a good excuse for one.



DJ,

If you want more information on this EM offering (like VOAs and UOAs), you might try going to the BITOG forum (just type www (dot) bobistheoilguy (dot) com) and with just little surfing you can find some very recent VOAs/UOAs for M1 0w40. Just look under their "VOA" (VOA stands for Virgin Oil Analysis) section. There is also a lot of tutorial material that'll bring you up to speed on what the indiviual constituents of a formulation contribute to the oil's performance.

Much in the way of neat stuff over there.


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djwarner
Junior Member

USA
234 Posts

Posted - January 20 2011 :  5:56:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Charlie,
Thanks for the heads up. While there I found a CalSci note saying that due to innovations in processing G III stock, thay now perform very close to G IV. I guess some things do get better over time.

NON NOBIS TANTUM NATI
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CharlieX
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - January 20 2011 :  7:24:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by djwarner

Charlie,
Thanks for the heads up. While there I found a CalSci note saying that due to innovations in processing G III stock, thay now perform very close to G IV. I guess some things do get better over time.



DJ,

Agreed.

How unfortunate that the U.S. economy is not one of those things that get better over time (presently).

Back on topic...

With improved refinement techniques, GTL technology and myriad other developments in the field, it is getting harder to define what is really "synthetic", a generic term at best, since its root is "synthesize"; a term that means "to produce from chemical synthesis rather than from natural origin".

At what point we consider something to be of "synthetic" origin when everything that exists (especially in the "chemical" realm) is actually "natural" by its mere existence becomes academic when we can obtain similar results from both highly refined naturally occuring sources and molecules assembled "from scratch" (whose precursor sources have to come from somewhere, nature of course being that "somewhere"); the semantic threshold and frame of reference that one elects to take determines ultimtely how one will define the term "synthetic".

At some point, if we deal in "absolutes", a practice that causes my wife much annoyance with me , the term "natural" must mean only that which is found in its completely unaltered state and "synthetic" must mean anything that has undergone even a single manufacturing step or process no matter how basic.

And here you just wanted to know about some motor oil you purchased last year...


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perrodelucha
Senior Member

USA
927 Posts

Posted - January 20 2011 :  9:41:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Charlie, do you have an opinion or any information on amsoil or maybe royal purple? any idea how they might perform? thanks!
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n/a
deleted

1270 Posts

Posted - January 21 2011 :  01:55:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Almost every oil company now makes synthetic oils .Want to make a complete list ?? Demands on oils for guns are not that high.
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CharlieX
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - January 21 2011 :  5:04:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by perrodelucha

Charlie, do you have an opinion or any information on amsoil or maybe royal purple? any idea how they might perform? thanks!



Both Amsoil and Royal Purple are highly regarded and advertise their products as being formulated using "real" (primarily POAs) synthetic basestocks. RP also makes an oil specifically marketed for use on firearms and my opinion is that I'd expect that it is very much up to the task. I'd encourage you to check their website for more.

As cellamet said above, "Demands on oils for guns are not that high." and he is correct. What an internal combustion engine does to oil in just an hour under load is orders of magnitude greater than what our guns are capable of dishing out and for that reason automotive oils are "over-engineered" for use in guns. Even the cheapest generic no-name, conventional (non-synthetic) motor oil is more than any of our guns will ever need. I just like having the best.

Armalite used to have in their website library, "Technical Note #65, Alternate Cleaning and Lubrication Materials for Small Arms" that recomended the use of, "...ATF as a small arms cleaning agent, followed with 20 weight synthetic motor oil as a lubricant..." and even mentioned Mobil 1 by name as one of those automotive lubricants suitable for use in such a role. Shoot them an e-mail and I'll bet that they will be able to send you the document. They did so for me.





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perrodelucha
Senior Member

USA
927 Posts

Posted - January 25 2011 :  8:57:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
thanks Charlie!
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RandyB45
Advanced Member

2413 Posts

Posted - February 02 2011 :  6:50:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by NE450No2

Well my thoughts are this...

I have used several different products over the years...

But Truth be told, I have found that if you could have only one "Gun Juice", make mine BreakFree.

Civilian Break Free, yes. MilSpec CLP now does none of that as they removed the teflon.

We mixed 3 parts CLP with 1 part ATF for cleaning. Motor oil on the machine guns. We've used ATF to lube light machine guns with good results. Wouldn't use it on a handgun as it will ruin your clothes.
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CharlieX
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - February 03 2011 :  12:32:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RandyB45

Civilian Break Free, yes. MilSpec CLP now does none of that as they removed the teflon.

We mixed 3 parts CLP with 1 part ATF for cleaning. Motor oil on the machine guns. We've used ATF to lube light machine guns with good results. Wouldn't use it on a handgun as it will ruin your clothes.



Randy,

Details please?

What kind of machine guns, maintenance intervals? What kind of motor oil? (brand, weight, etc.)

The "anecdotal" stuff always interests me.

Thank you.



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RandyB45
Advanced Member

2413 Posts

Posted - February 03 2011 :  3:46:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On the range we used ATF on the SAW/M249. We just sprayed it on with a spray bottle. Easier to clean as well. Later on we had buckets of LAW and LSA so we used that in combat.

M240/M2 we used whatever the Army uses for motor oil. 15W40, I think. A machine gun is a bunch of reciprocating parts that get hot. Infantry logic led me to believe that's a motor. Smokes like a broken stove but it works.

The CLP/ATF blend is a great cleaner. It'll even get under rust and flake it off. We received some linked 7.62 that was so nasty you could use a 50 round belt as a pointer. Brushed some of that on and it cleaned it right up. I soaked a belt of it for a couple of weeks to see if it would hurt anything. It didn't, but we tried to limit that to training ammo and save the newer ammo for people. We also used Coca Cola to clean ammo. Fresh water rinse. That stopped when they finally figured out I was not kidding about our AK ammo supply problems.

Interval? Whenever. Always after firing or dusty conditions. I'm a maintenance Nazi, so it was frequently.

I asked my Iraqi counterpart about maintenance on AKs. He said "We use half diesel and half benzene (gasoline)." I guess the look on my face was enough to prompt the following "Is not to worry. The diesel cuts the explosiveness of the benzene." Umm hmm. I stole some JP8, he brought some gas and we mixed it in a big tub. They got in line, fired up cigarettes, and dunked the parts while I went next door to warn the medics. It worked and left a nice light coat on the weapons to prevent rust. They weren't the only ones chain smoking that afternoon.

I'll post up some hospital gunfighting tactics later....
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CharlieX
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - February 03 2011 :  5:47:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RandyB45

On the range we used ATF on the SAW/M249. We just sprayed it on with a spray bottle. Easier to clean as well. Later on we had buckets of LAW and LSA so we used that in combat.

M240/M2 we used whatever the Army uses for motor oil. 15W40, I think. A machine gun is a bunch of reciprocating parts that get hot. Infantry logic led me to believe that's a motor. Smokes like a broken stove but it works.

The CLP/ATF blend is a great cleaner. It'll even get under rust and flake it off. We received some linked 7.62 that was so nasty you could use a 50 round belt as a pointer. Brushed some of that on and it cleaned it right up. I soaked a belt of it for a couple of weeks to see if it would hurt anything. It didn't, but we tried to limit that to training ammo and save the newer ammo for people. We also used Coca Cola to clean ammo. Fresh water rinse. That stopped when they finally figured out I was not kidding about our AK ammo supply problems.

Interval? Whenever. Always after firing or dusty conditions. I'm a maintenance Nazi, so it was frequently.

I asked my Iraqi counterpart about maintenance on AKs. He said "We use half diesel and half benzene (gasoline)." I guess the look on my face was enough to prompt the following "Is not to worry. The diesel cuts the explosiveness of the benzene." Umm hmm. I stole some JP8, he brought some gas and we mixed it in a big tub. They got in line, fired up cigarettes, and dunked the parts while I went next door to warn the medics. It worked and left a nice light coat on the weapons to prevent rust. They weren't the only ones chain smoking that afternoon.

I'll post up some hospital gunfighting tactics later....



Randy,

Thanks and looking forward to it.

quote:
....They got in line, fired up cigarettes, and dunked the parts.....


Sounds like the start of a very exciting cleaning session.

I've never really messed with mixing ATF with any gun specific lubricant, but the CLP/ATF's ability to lift rust/corrosion from metal surfaces is an appealing one.

Thanks for the enjoyable post and your service to our Nation.


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