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CharlieX
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - August 02 2009 :  11:53:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Welcome, 12XLR8.

Many solvents and lubricants can, at least in theory, interfere with or deactivate primer function upon subsequent contamination.

WD-40 could do so, I suppose, being that it is "thin enough" to migrate through and penetrate very tight tolerances.

WD-40 is an excellent water displacement agent and is composed of a mixture of petroleum distillates (the last mass spectroscopy and gas chromatography that I saw of WD-40 showed the presence of Nonane, Decane, Undecane, Tridecane, Tetradecane, Cyclo-Hexane and Dimethyl Naphthalene) that make WD-40 an excellent water "displacer" and it appears to use CO2 as a propellant.

WD-40's hygroscopic nature (attaches readily to H2O) could present corrosion issues over the long-term for some finer firearm's finishes (like "blueing") and its residual film, a by-product of its evaporation, can also cause problems if negligence permits its accumulation.

While I do use WD-40 to "dry out" firearms that have been immersed by accident on the rare occasion, I also make certain to wipe off all traces of it afterward and "follow-up" with Hoppes' #9 or the like.

I suppose that motor oil could, given the proper conditions, interfere with or deactivate primer function, however moderate use and due diligence should render that a very minor concern so long as your cleaning and lubricating regimen does not consist of soaking your gun and ammunition in a tub of your favorite motor oil for a week.

If you are getting satisfactory performance from Corrosion-X why abandon it? Go with what works for you.


Regards,



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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5049 Posts

Posted - August 03 2009 :  7:21:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A friend was going to be away for a few months, wanted to give his guns a good coating of lube to protect them while they languished in the safe. Figured WD-40 would be OK, since there was no ammo involved. Came back home, every gun had a light red finish, took him a while to de-rust them, and I don't think he has a can of the stuff anywhere on his property anymore. I told him he should have used Vaseline. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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CharlieX
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - August 04 2009 :  1:21:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

A friend was going to be away for a few months, wanted to give his guns a good coating of lube to protect them while they languished in the safe. Figured WD-40 would be OK, since there was no ammo involved. Came back home, every gun had a light red finish, took him a while to de-rust them, and I don't think he has a can of the stuff anywhere on his property anymore. I told him he should have used Vaseline. Ace



Ace,

Sorry to hear of your friend's misfortune.

I hope that he was able to mitigate the damage so that the "cost" of the lesson was not too "steep".

You are correct though, Vaseline slathered on heavily would've performed better as a "barrier" to oxidation over the long-term.

I have used M1 20w50(V-TWIN) for over fourteen years as a lubricant/preservative with excellent results. Although it is not a "field expedient", I also prefer the use of Break-Free LP for long-term preservation and anti-oxidation protection.

"Field expediency" is a wonderful asset to have but, unless one knows exactly what one is doing there is always the potential for unexpected consequences and surprises (disaster).




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mojo
Advanced Member

USA
2911 Posts

Posted - August 04 2009 :  2:07:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For rust prevention I like RIG - - - I read where Outer's (if I recall correctly) has bought the RIG line of products and will be re-introducing it soon.

Texas and Louisiana Concealed handgun instructor.

NRA Certified Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearm Safety, Personal Protection and Refuse to be a Victim instructor.

NRA Endowment member.

Disabled U. S. Army Veteran 1St Cav and 82nd Airborne 1967-1970.
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2938 Posts

Posted - August 04 2009 :  2:19:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Corrosion X is an outstanding rust preventitive & barrel preservative. I have used it for years. It is also a great "light" lubricant, especially for rimfire semi-autos. It does not grab and hold powder fouling. I also use it for fine lubes in trigger groups, and it is the only lube I use on revolvers. It will not deactivate a primer .. whether an unsealed reloaded case, or a sealed LEO-grade round. I tested this 10 years ago. Put a variety of ammo base up, covered it with Cor X... came back 30 days later, and everything fired normally. WD-40 was tested at the same time and DID deactive almost all unsealed (reloaded) cases, but not the sealed LEO grade stuff. As for 20w50w Mobil 1, that is my heavy lube. Barrel/slide on semi-autos, barrel locking lugs on 1911 & CZ guns, and my AR never stutters when the bolt/bolt carrier group is run wet with it. Love it.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5049 Posts

Posted - August 04 2009 :  9:39:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
(I was kidding him about the Vaseline.)
I used to use Eezox to coat the exposed metal on my truck and patrol guns. Looked greasy after it dried, but was dry to the touch. The shotgun hung in either a roof rack or over the back seat, no case, in hot/cold/dry/damp/wet weather, sometimes months at a time with just an occasional dusting off--never did get a spot of rust. Now I put on a double coat of Turtle wax, works fine. On older guns that may ride in the truck for extended periods, Krylon then Turtle wax. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.

Edited by - Ace on August 06 2009 10:05:41 PM
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CharlieX
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - August 04 2009 :  11:52:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

I was kidding him about the Vaseline.


Ace,

Yep, I figured as much.

As amusing as it might seem, it still would've worked better than the WD-40.

I've never messed with the automotive waxes although you'd think I'd might have, considering my dalliances with other automotive products as "field expedients" in the care of small arms. Guess that it just proves (yet again) that if you can establish a reliable physical barrier between ordnance steel and O2 that can maintain its integrity, you can prevent rust. It is both simple and confounding all at the same time.

How does it stand up to the various gun cleaning compounds and solvents? Considering that (true) waxes are easliy saponified by soaps is that what you are using to remove it when necessity dictates?

Always looking to learn something new since a closed mind is nothing but a burden.

Please enlighten.




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12XLR8
Starting Member

USA
21 Posts

Posted - August 05 2009 :  03:48:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the info CharlieX, and the warm Welcome from all of you guys.
For what it's worth I used Kroil to remove light rust from a HK 94 recoil spring and rod. That worked great since I didn't have to scrub it, I just sprayed it on waited couple of days wiped it off, did that about three times and rust was gone. From then It was corrosionX & no rust since then.
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mojo
Advanced Member

USA
2911 Posts

Posted - August 05 2009 :  09:35:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
[i]Originally posted by CharlieX

I've never messed with the automotive waxes although you'd think I'd might have, considering my dalliances with other automotive products as "field expedients" in the care of small arms. Guess that it just proves (yet again) that if you can establish a reliable physical barrier between ordnance steel and O2 that can maintain its integrity, you can prevent rust. It is both simple and confounding all at the same time.

How does it stand up to the various gun cleaning compounds and solvents? Considering that (true) waxes are easliy saponified by soaps is that what you are using to remove it when necessity dictates?

Always looking to learn something new since a closed mind is nothing but a burden.

Please enlighten.






In Vietnam we used to put Black Kiwi boot polish on the barrels of our M-16 rifles to prevent rust. Worked very well but, the heat from firing would mess up the spit shine
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wolfgang2000
Advanced Member

USA
3742 Posts

Posted - August 05 2009 :  09:50:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was told that Vaseline and cosmoline have similar properties.

Does anyone know is that is true?

“The key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a tactical philosophy.” Evan Marshall
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mojo
Advanced Member

USA
2911 Posts

Posted - August 05 2009 :  1:27:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wolfgang2000

I was told that Vaseline and cosmoline have similar properties.

Does anyone know is that is true?



They are both petroleum products that's about the end of it. Vaseline is easy to remove. Cosmoline - - - nearly impossible!

Texas and Louisiana Concealed handgun instructor.

NRA Certified Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearm Safety, Personal Protection and Refuse to be a Victim instructor.

NRA Endowment member.

Disabled U. S. Army Veteran 1St Cav and 82nd Airborne 1967-1970.
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CharlieX
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - August 05 2009 :  1:29:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wolfgang2000

I was told that Vaseline and cosmoline have similar properties.

Does anyone know is that is true?



Both have fairly similar properties.

"Vaseline" and "Cosmoline" are composed of long(er) non-polar hydrocarbon molecules that are hydrophobic (they resist/repel water) and would serve well as a "barrier" against humid and oxidizing environments/conditions as both compounds are resistant to oxidation.

"Cosmoline" is a bit "heavier" (longer) and more "bound" molecularly speaking which makes it more "waxy" than "Vaseline".

"Vaseline" is composed of shorter paraffinic chains making it "lighter" than "Cosmoline". Either would be suitable as a "barrier" though Vaseline will be a little messier to work with at "normal" temperatures because it doesn't solidify as readily as "Cosmo" does.





Edited by - CharlieX on August 05 2009 1:36:23 PM
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Chris Christian
Advanced Member

USA
2938 Posts

Posted - August 05 2009 :  1:56:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
CX... WOW!... I think you just taught a college course in petrochemical properties. Thank you very much for the time and effort. I now understand (I think) why my Mobil 1 20w50w VTwin lets me run semi-auto handguns and ARs real hard and real long in 95 degree Florida heat... without a stutter. And, I find a lot less carbon build up on the AR bolt/bolt carrier than when regular oil is used.

Chris Christian
There are those who make things happen. There are those who watch things happen. There are those who wonder What The Heck happened! Pick one.
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CharlieX
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - August 05 2009 :  2:06:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

CX... WOW!... I think you just taught a college course in petrochemical properties. Thank you very much for the time and effort. I now understand (I think) why my Mobil 1 20w50w VTwin lets me run semi-auto handguns and ARs real hard and real long in 95 degree Florida heat... without a stutter. And, I find a lot less carbon build up on the AR bolt/bolt carrier than when regular oil is used.



Chris-

My pleasure.

Lubricant performance has a lot to do with the "basestock" and "additive package" as well.

"Viscosity" is just part of the overall picture.

Plenty of really good oils out there. Seems like you have found what works best for you.

M1 "VTWIN" is also my "favorite".

You have exceptional judgment.





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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5049 Posts

Posted - August 05 2009 :  11:33:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
CharlieX, I ain't gonna be able to use them big fancy words you do, but I'll try to make it sound good.
I use either carb cleaner or acetone to de-grease the outside metal parts, tape off the parts I don't want paint on with masking tape, then hang the parts up and apply three or four really light coats of Krylon until the desired areas are completely covered. Let that dry and set for a couple of days, then apply the two coats of Turtle wax with a soft cloth. I've never had a problem with Hoppe's #9 or RemOil softening or removing the coating, but I try to keep that confined to the inner, working parts. It can get chipped or scraped if it comes in contact with something sharp, but a quick couple of squirts of paint and a touch-up of wax and it's good to go.
Bear in mind I'm not trying to do anything fancy here, just want to keep rust off while the gun hangs in the roof rack of the pickup. I've never had a bird or mammal act insulted because it was shot with an ugly gun. (Although if applied carefully, with a smart choice in color, it can produce quite an attractive finish.) Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.

Edited by - Ace on August 05 2009 11:41:31 PM
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djwarner
Junior Member

USA
234 Posts

Posted - August 06 2009 :  10:35:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Lee

George, thank you for the information. Hard chrome seems like it would be an excellent way to protect the rails from galling.

Doc Lee



Hi all, a newbie here...

Stainless steel galling is most often caused by chrome welding. Corrosion resistance in SS is primarily due to its high chrome content. I worked with 316 SS extensively for use in chemical processing industry. For best corrosion protection, 316 is passivated - that is, after machining, the surface iron is removed by washing in phosphoric acid. This leaves a surface that is basically chrome.

With very smooth surfaces in intimate contact, chrome molecules from one part bond to chrome molecules on the other. When motion occurs, the some chrome is transferred, causing galling.

Hard chrome plating is not chemically different than other chrome plating processes - only thicker. Also, a rougher surface, with pores for oil retention is often induced.

Anti-galling properties can be enhanced by a metal alloy formulation, typically adding silicon. But the best anti-galling measure is to prevent intimate contact utilizing a polarized lubricant as mentioned above. Surface finish roughness can also minimize intimate contact assuming the material strength will withstand the abrasive wear.

Early spacecraft experienced failures due to parts welding together in the vaccum of space. Because of the temperature extremes, no lubricants were allowed. Once air was removed, welding occurred. To get around this, parts are coated with iodine.

NON NOBIS TANTUM NATI
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Evan
Administrator

34116 Posts

Posted - August 06 2009 :  11:05:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Welcome aboard! thanks for the info

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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CharlieX
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - August 06 2009 :  7:16:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by djwarner


Hi all, a newbie here...

Stainless steel galling is most often caused by chrome welding. Corrosion resistance in SS is primarily due to its high chrome content. I worked with 316 SS extensively for use in chemical processing industry. For best corrosion protection, 316 is passivated - that is, after machining, the surface iron is removed by washing in phosphoric acid. This leaves a surface that is basically chrome.

With very smooth surfaces in intimate contact, chrome molecules from one part bond to chrome molecules on the other. When motion occurs, the some chrome is transferred, causing galling.

Hard chrome plating is not chemically different than other chrome plating processes - only thicker. Also, a rougher surface, with pores for oil retention is often induced.

Anti-galling properties can be enhanced by a metal alloy formulation, typically adding silicon. But the best anti-galling measure is to prevent intimate contact utilizing a polarized lubricant as mentioned above. Surface finish roughness can also minimize intimate contact assuming the material strength will withstand the abrasive wear.

Early spacecraft experienced failures due to parts welding together in the vaccum of space. Because of the temperature extremes, no lubricants were allowed. Once air was removed, welding occurred. To get around this, parts are coated with iodine.




Welcome and "Thanks" for the awesome, not to mention very informative, post.


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CharlieX
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - August 07 2009 :  12:21:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

CharlieX, I ain't gonna be able to use them big fancy words you do, but I'll try to make it sound good. Ace



You did fine.

Always nice to have another "option" to consider for "improvised" firearms finishes and the like.

Your post got me to thinkin' and I wonder if high temperature paints (oven or engine type) might offer even more durability to the finished product.


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Biggfoot44
Advanced Member

2233 Posts

Posted - August 07 2009 :  12:40:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Before stainless bbls if not actions became common in hunting rifles, it was a staple of the sporting mags to have articles about ' how to protect your gun ' in wet areas, frequently invocing coastal Alaska. Automotive wax on blued steel was frequently mentioned. For more radical protection was specifically a household rest preventing spray paint. Flat black Derusto in particular. I haven't done one yet, but Spruce Green is both pleasing to the eye, and has potental for camo for either hunting or tactical.
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Biggfoot44
Advanced Member

2233 Posts

Posted - August 08 2009 :  07:06:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Charlie; You have the most experence/ have the most data for the Mobil 1 line of products. But there is one category conspicuously absent. Diesl or dual rated Diesel/ gas oil. I understand the diesel additive package to include among other things increased ability to keep soot in suspension while providing lubrication. Seems like a directgas rifle has much in common with a DD 2 stroke. Is there any reason to avoid Diesel rated oils for firearms ? My exclusive oil for my Dodge Cummins is Rotella T Syn 5W-40 .
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5049 Posts

Posted - August 08 2009 :  07:50:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a .44 single-shot rifle done up in Krylon camo colors. Leaned it against a tree once while I went off a few yards doing something. If I hadn't know just which tree to look for when I came back, the gun would still be there.
Hadn't thought about the high-temp paint, that might be a good idea for the barrel of the AR. Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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CharlieX
Senior Member

USA
781 Posts

Posted - August 08 2009 :  2:57:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Biggfoot44

Charlie; You have the most experence/ have the most data for the Mobil 1 line of products. But there is one category conspicuously absent. Diesl or dual rated Diesel/ gas oil. I understand the diesel additive package to include among other things increased ability to keep soot in suspension while providing lubrication. Seems like a direct gas rifle has much in common with a DD 2 stroke. Is there any reason to avoid Diesel rated oils for firearms ? My exclusive oil for my Dodge Cummins is Rotella T Syn 5W-40.




Biggy-

Heh...now that you mention it...yeah, there are no diesel lubricants listed. My "bad"

This unintentional exclusion was not meant to "disqualify" them from being considered as suitable expedients. To the contrary, they should do very well in the role.

Both gasoline engine lubricants and diesel engine lubricants have detergent/dispersant additives in their additive package compositions.

These additives perform the functions of keeping internal surfaces free of deposits and keeping insoluble (combustion and externally generated) contaminants dispersed and suspended within the lubricant so that they can be carried away (ideally) with the next (ex)change of lubricant.

The uninformed often make the mistake of confusing the chemistry and function of the detergency additives in motor oils with the "detergent" commonly found on their laundry room shelves and attribute falsely, detrimental/corrosive effects to the use of such compounds, in small arms. Such is not the case.

Rather, "detergent" additives composed of metallo-organic compounds of sodium and calcium, magnesium phenolates, phosphonates and sulfonates perform their "detergent" function(s) by reacting chemically with sludge and varnish precursors to neutralize them and keep them soluble while "dispersants", commonly alkylsuccinimides and alkylsuccinic esters, bond insoluble (external and combustion) contaminants (via a polar attraction) to these dispersant molecules and prevent them from agglomerating by keeping them in suspension (due to solubility of dispersant) until such time as the lubricant fluid is removed.

I've also seen claims made that since firearms do not have oil filters like engines, that these detergent/dispersant qualities are "lost" on small arms. This could not be farther from the truth since detergency and dispersancy is a chemical reaction/process and not a function of physical separation (much like "filtering").

Also, although they will work as well, I encourage anyone so inclined, not to use gear lubricants (like 80w90 and 75w140) since they contain significant quantities of sulphur that cause them to become kind of "smelly" when subjected to heating. Eww.

So, if you've a little bit of that Rotella T 5w40 left in the bottom of one of the bottles that you used for your last oil change, get a little needle oiler (or whatever suits you) and fill 'er up. You oughta be good to go.




Edited by - CharlieX on August 08 2009 3:22:07 PM
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Ace
Advanced Member

USA
5049 Posts

Posted - August 08 2009 :  7:04:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, I use Rotel tomatoes sometimes when I make chili. Would some of that juice work as well as the Rotella you're talking about? Ace

Give me $1 every time a Liberal lies, I'll give you $5 every time one tells the truth; I'll end up a wealthy man, you'll end up broke.
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Biggfoot44
Advanced Member

2233 Posts

Posted - August 09 2009 :  09:44:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rotell T is a line of oils made by Shell. They are marketed and advertised twords the heavy truck commercial/fleet users. Think 18 wheelers, and heavy dump trucks. And approved all the major mfgs of heavy diesel engines. They are also dual rated for use in gas engines. Commonly seen in conventional in strieght 30 (still required for older Detroit Diesel engines) and in 15W-40. And full synthetic in a 5W-40 . Their close competitor is the Delo 400 product line. One or the other sometimes shows up at better stocked WalMarts. Mainly found in dealers or parts housses dealing with Big Trucks, or large agricultural machinery. Not found at typical auto parts venues.
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