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tenniso
New Member

72 Posts

Posted - February 12 2009 :  3:22:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Evan, in all your experience and all you have seen, which 9mm round stands out as having the most proven track record on the street? i could care less about jello results, but what has actually worked on the street?

Evan
Administrator

34875 Posts

Posted - February 12 2009 :  3:29:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
9BPLE and Cor Bon 115gr +p

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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mecheng
Average Member

USA
437 Posts

Posted - February 12 2009 :  6:54:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ranger-T in both 127gr (RA9TA) and 147gr (RA9T).
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Pitbull
Moderator

2011 Posts

Posted - February 13 2009 :  09:34:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would add to Evan's list of proven 9MM rounds the Winchester 115 gr. +P+ load.
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esq_stu
Senior Member

USA
919 Posts

Posted - February 13 2009 :  11:05:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK now so far we have 5 candidates for the most proven round. And three people recommended them.

I think that is an indication that there won't be a single answer. In fact, I don't see how there could be, since "proven" doesn't have an objective meaning. If it's one-shot-stops based on stats in Evan's books, that is one possible meaning. But what about new data? What about newer ammo that was not available when earlier stats were collected? What about ammo yet to be tested in YOUR gun?

IMO, the bottom line will always be that you choose from among the loads that have an acceptable record (to you or someone you rely on), and make sure your choice is reliable in the particular gun you are considering, and make sure you are competent with the combination.

Kol Tuv (All the best!)

-- esq_stu

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Arvinator
Advanced Member

USA
5625 Posts

Posted - February 13 2009 :  12:40:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have to agree with Evan hands down, and I don't have near the research and/or experience he does.

Be honest, fair, and always prepared...
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Evan
Administrator

34875 Posts

Posted - February 13 2009 :  1:47:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
remember though we are all victimized by our experience. I'm not a big fan of 147gr loads, but if some one handed me a gun loaded with them I would not hide under the bed until my bride could get me some super whiz bang uranium tipped homicide rounds.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Doc Lee
Advanced Member

USA
1284 Posts

Posted - February 13 2009 :  2:12:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Evan, one thing you were able to provide, in your books, is a whole lot of data points not based upon your own personal experience(s). Granted that data are becoming dated. Still whatever worked 95% of the time, within a reasonable population of OSS, should be as efficient today as they were in 1996 or 1998.

Your focus was on what round is/has been effective in actual street usage. The use of ballistic gello or autopsy results can supplement information, however, neither are able to predict the fight stopping characteristics of a particular round. For example, the 115 gr +P Corbon fails penetration tests, however, its street record is among the best in caliber. Gello testing might infer that a round will be a fight stopper, however, taken by itself it cannot predict what will happen on the street.

For the 9mm, The two loads you mention and the 127 Gr Winchester +P+ and the 124 gr Speer +P Gold dot have data that support their being on one's short list of proved loads to consider.

Regards,

Doc Lee
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mag318
Starting Member

USA
9 Posts

Posted - February 24 2009 :  3:03:26 PM  Show Profile  Send mag318 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Winchester 147gr Black Talon (Now called Ranger T). During my 31 years on a big department I've seen more 1 shot stops with this load then any other.
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Evan
Administrator

34875 Posts

Posted - February 24 2009 :  3:46:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
we're all the beneficiares or victims of our experiences-none of us know it all and I simply tell people to carry what they faith in-I do.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5764 Posts

Posted - February 24 2009 :  6:19:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you figure the totality of carnage on the street, the "proven performer" is probably 9mm ball.

Jeff

jle3030
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mojo
Advanced Member

USA
2911 Posts

Posted - February 24 2009 :  8:03:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

If you figure the totality of carnage on the street, the "proven performer" is probably 9mm ball.

Jeff



Yeah, and all the military ball ammo used in 9mm over the last 100+ years would make FMJ THE proven round for sure. I still want a good JHP round in my gun.

Texas and Louisiana Concealed handgun instructor.

NRA Certified Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearm Safety, Personal Protection and Refuse to be a Victim instructor.

NRA Endowment member.

Disabled U. S. Army Veteran 1St Cav and 82nd Airborne 1967-1970.
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jle3030
Advanced Member

USA
5764 Posts

Posted - February 24 2009 :  8:18:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yup. Hotrodded JHP's and round count are the two reasons I feel comfortable with 9mm.

Jeff

jle3030
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mecheng
Average Member

USA
437 Posts

Posted - February 25 2009 :  11:52:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mag318

Winchester 147gr Black Talon (Now called Ranger T). During my 31 years on a big department I've seen more 1 shot stops with this load then any other.



The original 147gr Blck Talon was a marginal performer, but still better than many of the generic loads of its time. The newer Ranger-T (RA9T) is whole different animal, and along with its lighter brothers the 127gr +P+ , and 124gr +P loads puts 9mm performance within sight of the best .40 and .45 loads. I would also add 124gr Gold Dot, to the list.
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Gearhead Jim
Junior Member

USA
237 Posts

Posted - February 26 2009 :  11:41:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

If you figure the totality of carnage on the street, the "proven performer" is probably 9mm ball.

Jeff


Guys I spoke to in South Africa reported that everyone shot with 9mm ball would either fall down, surrender, or run away. I certainly wouldn't feel unarmed with it. But I buy 9BPLE for our department.
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mecheng
Average Member

USA
437 Posts

Posted - February 26 2009 :  12:03:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Surrender or run away is very unpredictable. The first response is more of what I am looking for. Jim I would like to suggest that you take a look at other options for 9mm duty ammo from the list below you will find all of them have excelent expansion penetration characteristics exceeding that of 9BPLE.

Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

If you do not feel comfortable with 147gr loads then pick one of the lighter weight loads. If your department has a high probability of needing to shoot into vehicles then I would strongly suggest choosing one of the bonded or Gold Dot loads.
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Gearhead Jim
Junior Member

USA
237 Posts

Posted - February 26 2009 :  5:48:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We use 9BPLE partly because it has a good street record (see Evan's books), partly because the jello tests arre pretty good, and partly because we can get it at an amazing price, cheaper than 9mm ball at walmart. We do virtually all of our training with the duty ammo now. For a small department with a limited budget, that's a big deal.
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Pitbull
Moderator

2011 Posts

Posted - February 26 2009 :  9:47:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jim, If I carried a 9MM on duty instead of my .40 cal. the 9BPLE would be on my short list. I hope to test some of the Winchester 127 gr. +P+ soon as I am curious about that as a newer load.
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Nicolas Deem
Senior Member

826 Posts

Posted - February 28 2009 :  1:22:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My buddy just changed PD's but is still using Sig P-226 in 9mm. He wasn't issued any duty ammo so he asked what I would recommend for it. I told him any 115 grain through 127 grain +P or +P+ round should be fine. He bought Winchester 127 grain +P+ Ranger T. An good choice in my eyes.

"We don't go to work, we go to war."

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Keith
Advanced Member

USA
2847 Posts

Posted - February 28 2009 :  6:35:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Orlando PD issued the 147-grain Black Talon and later the 147-grain Ranger-T load. They had some less-than-satisfactory results with it, so they started issuing the 127-grain Winchester +P+ load. No complaints after that.
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Evan
Administrator

34875 Posts

Posted - February 28 2009 :  8:08:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I got a call from a source in Orlando a few hours after their 1st shooting with 127 +p+ and they were estatic with the results.

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Chuck
Advanced Member

USA
3285 Posts

Posted - March 01 2009 :  03:57:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"and partly because we can get it at an amazing price,"

I almost did the same thing at my job when I was the rangemaster, and for the same reasons.
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n/a
deleted

3224 Posts

Posted - March 01 2009 :  07:59:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I sure wouldn't complain if mandated to carry 9 bple. It chrono's at more than 1250 fps from my G 19 and is the most accurate ammo ever.

Jim
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gumshoe4
Junior Member

213 Posts

Posted - March 02 2009 :  11:22:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We carry W-W personal defense 147-grain JHP. That's the issue ammo. No option.

Is it the best? Probably not, but it's the 9mm ammo which is on state contract and we're one of the last state agencies to be carrying the 9mm. That'll change soon, because we're getting 229s in .40.

Meanwhile, it's what we're given and I think it'll work reasonably well if called to do so. It is what it is, though it may not be the best...

Bob
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RG4105
New Member

USA
84 Posts

Posted - March 02 2009 :  7:06:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I want to hear from people who have experience shooting people, debreifeing people who have shot people, or have seen people shot. Bashing 9bple is ridiculous. It works as well as I would expect any conventional JHP and probably better. We have had failures(complete bullet pass through and little or not deformation with 147 grain bullets)when shooting real, violent felons. This has not been the case the 9bple. If you don't have direct experience, then you should think about zipping it. Jello is only a piece of the puzzle.

Ryan
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Keith
Advanced Member

USA
2847 Posts

Posted - March 02 2009 :  7:56:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A-men...!
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