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CO
Advanced Member

USA
4154 Posts

Posted - December 14 2008 :  4:47:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, the screen name gives it away, I work corrections, even though it's been over 4 years since I went to Sgt, not CO.
Here's what I am wanting to do. My Dept authorizes off duty emoployees to carry concealed sidearms under the state law that authorizes state corrections sworn officers the same carry authority as any other peace officer, even though we are NOT street cops, OR peace officers. It can be fun getting that point through the skulls of kids right out of the academy with thier shiny new star.
What the Dept does do is administratively limit our carry authority to where a civilian permit holder may go, but worst, completely differant from normal civvie carry, they specifically say we may NOT carry more than one sidearm at a time, even though state law does not bar us. AZ CCW permit is not weapon specific, and allows for the carry of any number of lawful firearms, long or short.
I do carry two or three sometimes - I can get another job, I can't get another life.
What I want to do is start the long painful process of changing Dept policy on second/backup firearms for off duty COs. To do that i need some citeable referances to where off duty PD or civilians needed a second firearm in a self defense situation, and not one where off duty PD followed his trainingto intervene off duty, as we are barred by policy from interfering with street cops. Since we are about to get rid of our Demo governor, and possibly our feel good DOC Director, which means this may be the right time.
Can ye help me, lads? Can ye give a hand to this puir olde knuckle draggin' prison guard??

GLV
Moderator

USA
8866 Posts

Posted - December 15 2008 :  4:49:01 PM  Show Profile  Send GLV an ICQ Message  Send GLV a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I believe Ayoob did have one case of a security guard using a bug. Can't remember if there were others, but if I were you, I would contact him.

'the world is round everywhere'

'The meek will inherit the earth, but only after the last soldier has left it to them in his will'
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Evan
Administrator

34604 Posts

Posted - December 15 2008 :  5:02:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tru TV had a clip of a uniform copper pulling a bug when his primary "went to sleep".

"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."

Harold B. Lee

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Glenn
Advanced Member

USA
1077 Posts

Posted - December 17 2008 :  1:49:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On an episode of Cops I believe it was the Shots Fired one an Officer found himself in a struggle with a felon who then took his weapon that Officer had just enough time to collect himself and pull his BUG, thus ending the felon's career of crime.

Semper Paratus
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Matthew Courtney
Advanced Member

USA
1220 Posts

Posted - December 17 2008 :  2:48:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Ayoob Files : The Book has a write up on a cab driver who shoots a robber 6 times with his .45 then covers him with his .38 while he bleeds out. Article is titled: Gunfight in a Taxi Cab: The Mark Yuhr Incident.

Mas is currently being investagated by a U.S. Attorney in Illinois for excessive use of colons in titles.

You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for.
Move in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.
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CO
Advanced Member

USA
4154 Posts

Posted - December 17 2008 :  3:45:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Egad. Thanks for the pointers, will try to get in touch with Mas - somehow.
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BikerRN
Average Member

480 Posts

Posted - December 18 2008 :  02:03:34 AM  Show Profile  Send BikerRN an AOL message  Reply with Quote
CO, feel free to contact me and I can help put you in touch with him.

No, I won't give you his cell number, but I will tell you whom to call to get it.

Biker
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Craig
Advanced Member

USA
1103 Posts

Posted - December 18 2008 :  4:02:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure you would find enough incidents to be a statistically valid "convincer." LEO or others, how many "off-duty" incidents are there, let alone how many continue to the point that a "bug" is the final factor. Knowing how many "incidents," pro football players aside, are there of negative consequences from having and carrying a second or third firearm? It may be that there may be limited positive evidence but equally limited evidence of there being any negative consequences.

What I might think might be interesting is to look to the situations with other peace officer firearms laws and policies and study how many are more restrictive on the officer compared to the legal citizen carrier. In California, for example, a number of the firearms laws are more restrictive of the "civilian" owner/carrier and less restrictive on the officer. The "safety" test requirements are not applied to law enforcement handguns, some of the assault weapons type restrictions are not applied the same way, possession, magazine capacity, etc. Magazine capacity may be a direction to consider. It's lawful and not restricted that I'm aware of, to carry multiple clips, magazines, etc., in the good old days, spare revolver rounds were carried by the beltful, in drop pouches, etc. A second or third weapon reduces the complexity and time problems of reloading. It might seem illogical to say it's OK to carry extra ammunition in a magazine but not in an extra firearm, which if it came down to a violent encounter, would be the best place to have it?

If worse comes to worst, what would the lawyers/risk managers say to the idea that a CO might be more at risk under policy restrictions than a civilian carrier under the same set of circumstances?
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CO
Advanced Member

USA
4154 Posts

Posted - December 18 2008 :  9:26:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Civilians can carry whatever they want that's legal, openly, no restrictions on magazines, ammunition, type, number of, etc. Open carry has been here for a loooong time. CCW started in '94, but an AZ permit is for "weapon", and those with CCW permits may carry anything that is legal, including anything on the National Register. I had a friend who carried a MAC 11 in an SMZ rig, 1911, Seecamp, and 22 pengun, all legal as church on Sunday.
We are actually MORE restricted than the civilians, with only authorized one off duty at a time, and restricted to several makers. BTW< I have the only authorized CZ in DOC. :) It can behandy to know people, but they are retired now.
Risk management would like us to be unarmed completely, CO family gets less in a lawsuit than the nationally televised sobbing family of a thug.
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Todd
Senior Member

USA
706 Posts

Posted - December 18 2008 :  11:43:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like what Craig is saying. You guys are being restricted far beyond the general population. The very nature of your occupation exposes you to more risk through your constant exposure to felons. I would think this may pose some liability to the state. I would push to allow licensed CCW corrections officers to carry under the same restrictions imposed on the public.
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