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Chuck
Advanced Member
USA
2487 Posts |
 Posted - November 29 2007 : 12:39:59 PM
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We hosted CCI here at my range a few months ago. I'm finally in a position to be un-busy enough to post this. We did not do the normal FBI series of tests, but those that basically interested me the most.
Results; all shots at 10 feet (note; all gello blocks confirmed using the standard BB gun test method)
.32acp Gold Dot from a Kel Tec P32
bare; penetration 7.75" expansion .48 velocity 770fps
heavy clothing; pen 11" ex .32 (started to open up and now looks like a HP wadcutter) 797fps
.380 Gold Dot from Kel Tec P3AT
bare; pen 10.75" ex .51 899fps
heavy clothing; pen 11.75 ex .485 920fps
.38sp 135gr Gold Dot +P from S&W 642
heavy clothing; pen 11" ex .552 820fps
heavy clothing; pen 12.25" ex .555 845fps
auto glass; pen 6.75" ex .72
.38 DPX +P from S&W 642
heavy clothing; pen 12" ex .518 947fps
Winchester 125gr .38 +p (WW white box) from 642
heavy clothing; pen 16" ex .415(lost mushroom into fragments)829fps
Remington 125gr .38 +P from 642 (also and Wal mart bulk buy)
heavy clothing; 16"+ (popped out of block and fell on the ground about ten feet away) ex .351 (mushroom sheared off as a lead doughnut, stayed inside block) 860fps
9mm from Glock 17
Winchester Ranger-T 124gr +P
heavy clothing; pen 13.25" ex .529 1219fps retained weight 120 grains
auto glass; pen 11.5" ex .752 1235fps RW94.7 grains
CCI 124+p Gold Dot
auto glass; pen 7.75 ex .72 1235fps RW 84.3grs (I was a bit surprised, but auto glass is a bit of a wild card in bullet performance)
Federal 147gr HST
heavy clothing; pen 13.5" ex .701 1008fps RW 150grs
auto glass; pen 4.25" ex .613 943fps RW 66grs
9mm from Glock 26
CCI 124gr 'Short barrel' load
heavy clothing; pen 14" ex .585 943fps RW 125gr
Cor Bon DPX 115gr
heavy clothing; pen 11.78" ex .689 1121fps RW 115gr
Federal 147gr HST
heavy clothing; pen 13" ex .702 943fps RX 150grs
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr +p+
heavy clothing; pen 15.5" ex .519 1261fps RW 124grs
Federal EFMJ 124gr
heavy clothing; pen 14.5" ex .505 1121fps RW 122.7grs
(I'd carry this load if limited to 'ball' ammo)
Glock 21
Federal .45acp 230gr HST +P
bare; pen 11" ex .97 791fps RW 235gr
(this was a promo 'beauty shot' for the .45 HST, expands much less from heavy clothing shots in what I've seen in the past)
.223, all shots from 16" Bushmaster
(no velocities available for the .223 due to crono problem)
Hornaday 60gr Barrier TAP SP
heavy clothing; pen 9" ex fragments
auto glass; pen 6.25" ex fragments
Federal Bonded 55gr
bare; pen 15" ex .47 RW 55gr
auto glass; pen 16" ex .35 RW 42gr
Federal 62gr Tactical Bonded
auto glass; pen 18" ex .475 RW 53grs
Cor Bon DPX 55gr
bare; pen 27" ex .223 (petals sheared off in first gello block)
auto glass; pen 24" ex .223 (sheared off again in first block)
Federal TRU 55gr BTHP
bare; pen 9.5" ex fragmentation
We also shot up a retired Crown Vic. I did not have a chance to use gello behind the shots, but I used a 3/4" plywood sheet as both a witness panel, and on the theory that any round that blows through a 3/4" plywood panel is still dangerous.
These are just observations and trends, not absolutes;
Basically a Crown Vic is poor cover, especially if firing into it from a 90 degree angle to the doors.
All of the available 9mm and .223 rounds would penetrate one door reliably, even at a 45% angle shot. The 9mm DPX was 100% through one door. The DPX .38 even from a snubby would go about 75% through one door.
The 7.62X39 and .223 DPX rounds would go through the passenger door and exit through the drivers door and still punch through the plywood. The DPX 9mm would do so about 75% of the time.
Everything goes through the trunk area sideways, even OO buck and .22lr. Either don't hide behind the trunk or fill it with sand is my advice.
I still like our issue 124gr +p Gold Dot ammo as it has proven itself in OISs over and over here. The 124gr +P Ranger-T is also a good load. Both are highly reliable even in short barrel guns and when shot 'limp wristed'.
I carry the 127gr +p+ in my guns, I really like that load and the extra bit of recoil is no issue for me.
I like DPX ALOT! If I had the budget for it I would use DPX for our issue 9mm service round.
I keep a reload of DPX on my belt for my 9mms, and two mags of DPX for my carbine.
I like the Federal Bonded .223 rounds, and I have some on hand for getting into cars or whatever, but if you need penetration the DPX seems to be king.
If I had to use a 147gr load for defense or duty use I think the HST is about as good as it gets. Portland reports it's working well for them.
I'm waiting for the +p version to come out.
The Gold Dot .380 from a Kel Tec is a far better choice than the .32acp, if one can handle the extra recoil.
The .38 Gold Dot and DPX are well worth the extra money to 'upgrade' one's snubby.
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Edited by - Chuck on December 01 2007 2:37:08 PM |
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GLV
Moderator
USA
8020 Posts |
Posted - November 29 2007 : 1:59:35 PM
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| Thanks Chuck. :)) |
'the world is round everywhere'
'The meek will inherit the earth, but only after the last soldier has left it to them in his will' |
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jle3030
Advanced Member
USA
2363 Posts |
Posted - November 29 2007 : 6:07:07 PM
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The information is greatly appreciated. While we all agree there are no magic bullets, it's still confidence inspiring to know which loads can be expected to perform as advertised.
Jeff |
jle3030 |
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Chuck
Advanced Member
USA
2487 Posts |
Posted - November 29 2007 : 6:27:44 PM
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I've been in a position to see the same bullets come from both autopsies and gello. The Gold Dot 9mm rounds are very consistent and often look like they fell out of a magazine ad.
The Ranger-T rounds I have seen from the street have been less photogenic but very effective.
Both mushroom very reliably, as in both rounds have always expanded well in our OISs even if they weren't picture perfect, which often happens when cars and bones get in the way.
It's my pleasure to add to the site. I hope my format above isn't too confusing. |
Edited by - Chuck on November 29 2007 6:32:09 PM |
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Shane638
New Member
51 Posts |
Posted - November 29 2007 : 6:37:36 PM
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Thanks |
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Evan
Administrator
27006 Posts |
Posted - November 29 2007 : 6:46:36 PM
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NYPD has been happy with both the 9MM 124gr+p and the .38 135gr +p.
Nothing is 100%, but there are plenty of good 9MM loads out there |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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Pitbull
Moderator
1088 Posts |
Posted - November 29 2007 : 11:51:09 PM
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| Chuck, Thanks for a great post! Not confusing at all, very well presented and very informative. I wish I had the time to do ammunition testing full time. |
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enidpd804
Advanced Member
1065 Posts |
Posted - November 30 2007 : 12:08:45 AM
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| Ditto above. Thanks, Chuck. |
Warren |
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jhiller
Moderator
USA
3224 Posts |
Posted - November 30 2007 : 06:55:31 AM
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9mm 147 gr HST shows excellent performance for G26. I am surprised by that.
Chuck.... thanks for the good work as usual.
I have long advocated against 147 gr 9mm in short barrel weapons but HST seems to have solved the expansion vs weight equation.
I still want a rifle for shooting through windows !
Jim |
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Chuck
Advanced Member
USA
2487 Posts |
Posted - November 30 2007 : 09:38:05 AM
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Thanks for the kind comments guys.
A couple of things I forgot;
The 9mm Ranger-T ammo has a very pronounced, hard 90 degree lip at the nose of the hollow point, almost a wadcutter with an ogive.
I had followed Jim Cirillo's thoughts on wadcutters, and bullets that bounce off of hard stuff, so I pay attention to that sort of thing.
I was filming a bit using the car about not crowding your cover, and using the trunk lid and hood to ricochet bullets off of into a target just behind the car. I couldn't get the Ranger-T rounds to skip, even at a very severe angle.
We had an OIS, with a miss involved, a few months ago and I noted that one of the 124gr +p Ranger-T rounds hit the hood of a parked Cavalier at a very steep angle, dug in and ended up penetrating the hood and buried in the firewall at the front of the engine compartment.
Just something that makes me go Hmmmmmmm.
The HST seems to always expand very big, looks like a starfish when you pull it from gelatin. Reports I get from Portland are that they are very happy with the 147gr 9mm load. I'm curious as to what effect, if any, is given by the sharp forward edges on the lead portion of that bullet.
We also fired the 12 gauge low recoil stuff, from an 18 1/2" Mossberg. I'm not sure if 10' is a good range to be testing slugs, but both the Hydrashock type slug and the low recoil Truball type slug go 15-18" in gello, and wreck the block.
The Hydrashock slug just gets shorter and turns into a short flat wadcutter shape, the Truball slug turns into a lead doughnut and fragments.
The Flitecontrol buckshot acts like a slug to about 7 yards.
Using an IALEFI-Q target, the round patterns 100% inside the center chest circle at 25yards. Even at 50 yards five pellets were in this circle, three on the silhouette, and one pellet missed. This was very consistent through the shotgun I tested the rounds from.
I switching my agency shotguns to the Truball slug and Flitecontrol OO buckshot for duty use.
I tested the 9mm DPX through glass, but I have no idea what happened to that bullet. I recall it did well, but I can't give specifics.
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Edited by - Chuck on December 01 2007 2:34:56 PM |
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wolfgang2000
Senior Member
USA
784 Posts |
Posted - November 30 2007 : 1:49:59 PM
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| Really good Info. Thanks Chuck. |
“The key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a tactical philosophy.” Evan Marshall |
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FORT CHAFFEE
Senior Member
USA
945 Posts |
Posted - November 30 2007 : 2:39:47 PM
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| Chuck thanks. |
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Bree
Junior Member
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - November 30 2007 : 11:19:05 PM
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| Terrific info Chuck. Thanks for sharing! |
Ride Safe & Shoot Straight!
Bree |
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Evan
Administrator
27006 Posts |
Posted - December 01 2007 : 06:12:12 AM
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When the Covert Committe for Transgender Vegetaranism shot HST in both 124gr and 147gr version we were impressed, but not as much as we were by DPX.
We shot close to 1,000lbs of VYSE gelatin and learned alot of things and we published the results here so everyone could benefit from it. We've seen a few shootings with DPX and the results have been encouraging.
I sell alot of different brands of self defense ammo in our shop-DPX is hard to get and it is always gone within days after it shows up, but I would carry any of the SD ammo we carry-if I didn't trust I would not sell it. |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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98_1LE
Starting Member
40 Posts |
Posted - December 02 2007 : 01:28:17 AM
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I am really surprised to see the .380 Gold Dots penetrated so well!
Thanks for your effort Chuck! |
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ceezfire
Junior Member
213 Posts |
Posted - December 02 2007 : 10:50:23 AM
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| thanks for sharing, ceez. |
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SCG1911
Junior Member
USA
233 Posts |
Posted - December 02 2007 : 2:45:29 PM
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Very good post Chuck, Thanks!....What did you use for "Heavy Clothing"? Just curious, the "premium rounds didn't have an issue with it compared to the "off the shelf" rounds.
Best to You and Your's
Steve |
"Political Correctness and Complacency are our greatest enemies today!" |
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Chuck
Advanced Member
USA
2487 Posts |
Posted - December 02 2007 : 10:05:09 PM
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It was a prefab version of the FBI heavy clothing test media, CCI has it sewn into large rolls for use at tests, it's a layer of denim and several other layers. I doubled it over so each heavy clothing shot was through two layers of denim plus the other materials.
The premium loads are a case of "you get what you pay for".
An example would be, I would carry the FBI load in my .38 snubbies if I had to, but the DPX and Gold Dot 135gr loads have easily replaced the LSWCHP for me due to performance in all of the testing I've done. |
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SCG1911
Junior Member
USA
233 Posts |
Posted - December 02 2007 : 10:35:29 PM
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| Thanks again Chuck, I agree and the results prove it time and time again. . . . |
"Political Correctness and Complacency are our greatest enemies today!" |
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Evan
Administrator
27006 Posts |
Posted - December 03 2007 : 06:10:56 AM
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lhp may be old technology, but it has served us well for decades and you wouldn't be behind the 8 Ball if you relied on it.
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"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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Chuck
Advanced Member
USA
2487 Posts |
Posted - December 05 2007 : 1:12:20 PM
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| I agree completely |
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Trey
Starting Member
5 Posts |
Posted - December 29 2007 : 7:21:20 PM
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Excellent reading! 9mm and 38spl are my bag. I don't think I will ever change that combo.
G19 Ranger T 127 +P+
S&W 442 DPX & GD 135 SB |
Certified Glock Armorer KS,CCW Instructor
IDPA S.O. & SSP EX
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Evan
Administrator
27006 Posts |
Posted - December 29 2007 : 7:44:03 PM
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| go to "TEST BED" there's a ton of gelatin tests there |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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Mr.T
Senior Member
725 Posts |
Posted - December 30 2007 : 4:21:16 PM
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| The Flite Control wad is interesting. Shot a deer through the chest at 9' and it entered and exited without the shot leaving the shot cup. One big hole. Deer was still moving, so I did a finishing shot to the neck. Entered as one big hole, but when it hit the bone in the opposite shoulder, the cup broke open and the pellets exited like a Claymore. Three inch exit wound. |
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PeteSmith
Starting Member
41 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 8:49:18 PM
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| Sorry for the bump, but can I see the pic of the DPX in gel? I'm seriously considering them as my new defense load. |
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Evan
Administrator
27006 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 11:59:03 PM
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| no pictures allowed on this site-go to CB's site they should have them. |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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Gello tests we did here.
