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wpdunit30
Starting Member
7 Posts |
 Posted - October 11 2006 : 3:29:03 PM
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| Hello. I am new to the forum and would like some suggestions. We are about to replace our 9mm 147 grain Federal Hydra-Shock's with a different duty round. The change is because of the high price. I am not looking for advice on a cheap replacement, just suggestions on which ones we should test. We issue Glock 17's and 26's so it will have to work out of a short barrel. I am recommending to go away from the 147 grain duty rounds because of their inability to perform well out of the short Glock 26 barrels (I'm sure this last statement will be up for debate). So far, we are definitely going to test the Speer GD 124 +P and Winchester Ranger T and bonded version 124 +P. We will not test any +P+ rounds. Any other suggestions? |
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garrettwc
Senior Member
798 Posts |
Posted - October 11 2006 : 3:36:15 PM
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Either of those would be tough to beat. Corbon DPX is another good choice.
Do a search in the stopping power section of the forum, this has been covered quite a few times. |
"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready."
Teddy Roosevelt - San Francisco, CA, May 13, 1903 |
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Evan
Administrator
27524 Posts |
Posted - October 11 2006 : 4:33:45 PM
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| if you'll go to the "Test Bed" portion of the forums you'll find that we tested alot of loads, consuming almost 1,000 lbs of VYSE gelatin-alot of that was the various 9MM loads. Both the Win +p 124 and 124gr +p Gold Dot are excellent. DPX is superb, but pricy. |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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wpdunit30
Starting Member
7 Posts |
Posted - October 11 2006 : 7:41:39 PM
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Here is the full list I have come up with after doing a weeks worth of research on the internet.
Speer GD 124 +P
Black Hills 124 +P (probably a cheaper alternative to the factory Speer rounds)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 124 +P
Remington GS Bonded 124 +P
Cor Bon DPX 115 +P
maybe the two Federal Tactical loads but they probably cost just as much as the Hydra Shock's we are replacing. |
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nsmike
Senior Member
643 Posts |
Posted - October 11 2006 : 8:30:56 PM
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The least expensive premium ammo at the local police supplier is Federal HST. Its 40% cheaper than the Gold Dots. I would have your current supplier quote pricing on the HST. I'm speculating, but Hydra-Shock may have been removed from the police pricing list, just as 357 mag was a few years ago.
Mike |
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wpdunit30
Starting Member
7 Posts |
Posted - October 12 2006 : 4:25:48 PM
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| Well in looking at the prices per case, it appears that the Federal HST 124 +P (P9HST3) will definitely be tested. I could not find any ballistics or gel test results on this round, just the standard pressure one. Does anyone know where I can find some results? |
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Mr.T
Senior Member
726 Posts |
Posted - October 12 2006 : 5:12:12 PM
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| As I remember, the velocity figure I saw for the HST +P was 1220 fps. out of a 4" barrel. I use the HST in .45 +P. I'm very pleased with it. Gold Dot 124gr +P has a good street record, but for some reason, it had a tendency to cause Phase III stoppages in my Glock 19. On the other hand, NYPD has had good luck with it. So...be sure you do a thorough reliability test in your guns with several different shooters. |
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Chuck
Advanced Member
USA
2680 Posts |
Posted - October 12 2006 : 7:23:28 PM
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For cycle reliability and proven wound ballistics, along with very good performance on barriers, the +p Gold Dot has few peers. We have issued the Gold Dot for years, it works great, works well for the NYPD as well. Our coroner and I are less impressed with the actual wound ballistics of the 124gr +p Winchester. I like the 127gr load alot but ya'll have written off +p+.
Go with the 124gr +p Gold Dot would be my very, very strong advice.
FWIW, the problem with this load and some Glock 19s was an issue with the Glocks from all of the folks that I talk to, and seems to have been fixed by Glock. If I was worried about it I'd make sure to test the load in my G19 or buy a new one to be sure I have an updated gun. |
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SJC3081
New Member
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - October 12 2006 : 9:42:13 PM
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| The 124 +P GD is coming out of my 3913(3.5" barrel) at 1168fps with a ES of 66.7. The Phase 3 malfuntions were a Glock 19 issue. Glock spent years at Rodmans Neck (NYPD FTS) retro-fitting all of the 19s. Yet Glock has not made this known to the public. |
When treason prospers none dare call it treason. |
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Mr.T
Senior Member
726 Posts |
Posted - October 14 2006 : 10:40:13 AM
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| Phase 3 malfunctions are not just a Glock 19 issue. They occur with Kahr 9mm. firearms as well. I'm well aware of the work done by Glock for NYPD, however a call to Glock a year or so back indicated that they did not recommend that the breachface modification performed for NYPD be performed on the older G-19s--said it was not necessary. On the other hand, the modification seemed to reduce the Phase 3 problems for NYPD, but not entirely. My personal observation has been that with my Glock the Speer 124gr. Phase 3 problems occur only after about 80 rounds have been fired. The Speer load is fairly dirty (leaves quite a bit of firing residue). On the other hand, the COR-BON DPX and Federal 135gr. +P Tactical are much cleaner and exhibit no Phase 3 problems so far. Take a serious look at the Tactical, but its probably beyond the budget levels suggested so far, so the HST may be a very good alternative. I also like the Winchester 127gr. +P+, but its pressure levels are very, very high, and I've moved away from it. Glocks can chip extractors when using +P+ rounds, and then they become single shots. |
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Peter 40SW
Junior Member
144 Posts |
Posted - October 14 2006 : 12:10:43 PM
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| What is a phase 3 stoppage? I have heard of them but don't know what occurs during a malf with them. My wifes Glock 19 does not like GD 124+p's but will take the BH version so I go with that. It also functions with all other ammo from HOT to cool without any problems. Thanks. |
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dennis strapon
Senior Member
USA
777 Posts |
Posted - October 14 2006 : 12:17:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wpdunit30
Hello. I am new to the forum and would like some suggestions. We are about to replace our 9mm 147 grain Federal Hydra-Shock's with a different duty round. The change is because of the high price. I am not looking for advice on a cheap replacement, just suggestions on which ones we should test. We issue Glock 17's and 26's so it will have to work out of a short barrel. I am recommending to go away from the 147 grain duty rounds because of their inability to perform well out of the short Glock 26 barrels (I'm sure this last statement will be up for debate). So far, we are definitely going to test the Speer GD 124 +P and Winchester Ranger T and bonded version 124 +P. We will not test any +P+ rounds. Any other suggestions?
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dennis R. strapon |
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Mr.T
Senior Member
726 Posts |
Posted - October 14 2006 : 2:02:11 PM
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A Phase 3 stoppage is found in pistols like the Glock and Kahr which have a needle-shaped ejector. The fired case can ride up the breech face and miss the ejector and remain captured by the extractor. A fresh round is fed into the chamber, but the fired case is stuck horizontally in the extractor and the slide closes part way until the mouth of the case is wedged tightly against the barrel hood.
In order to clear the stoppage you must: lock the slide open, drop the magazine,pick out the fired case, work the action to clear the unfired round in the chamber, load a fresh magazine, then tap, rack, bang.
In short, you draw your back-up and keep fighting until you can get your primary gun back in action. |
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SJC3081
New Member
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - October 15 2006 : 12:05:08 PM
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| I remember the Phase 3 also happening with Win 115 ball originally issued to NYPD. I remember these constant G19 malfuntions because I was there and constantly saw G19s locking up around me on the line. Also on the line were 5946s and 226s DOA and they ran almost perfect. I once saw a 5946 fail to fire, broken firing pin. I had a close relationship with many R/O and Supervisors at Rodmans Neck. The G26 also failed the realibiltiy test for authorized off duty but the Bosses at the Puzzle Palace(1PP)ordered it approved. My Kahr ran perfect on Speer GD. My G20 and G21 also suffer Phase 3 malfuntions. None of my Smith 3rd gen suffer any malfuntions and also feed empty shell casing for ball and dummy exercises,but they are big and heavy. |
When treason prospers none dare call it treason. |
Edited by - SJC3081 on October 15 2006 12:06:09 PM |
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wpdunit30
Starting Member
7 Posts |
Posted - October 15 2006 : 2:08:56 PM
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| Again, thanks for all the replies. I have been doing constant research on topic of handgun terminal effectiveness and figured out a few things. When it comes to duty ammo, all that really matters are accurate and reliable ammo, penetration, consistent expansion through most barriers, and permanent cavity. I have also determined that 147 grain bullets will perform as good if not better out of a Glock 26 than 17. With all this in mind, I have determined that we do not necessarily need +P ammo to do the job. Our Federal Hydra Shock 147's were actually pretty good except when shot through auto glass-all core/jacket separations. So, I am looking for a duty round which will perform like our old Hydra Shocks but will stick together through glass. I think the Speer Gold Dot 147, Winchester Ranger T 147, and Federal HST 147 will fit the bill-preference goes to the bonded GD for auto glass. I am a little weary of the new HST without any OIS feedback. |
Edited by - wpdunit30 on October 15 2006 2:10:34 PM |
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Mr.T
Senior Member
726 Posts |
Posted - October 15 2006 : 4:36:49 PM
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| The 147gr. HST was adopted by the INS/CBP. It did very well in gelatin tests and, although there are no street results, should be a good choice. |
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Chuck
Advanced Member
USA
2680 Posts |
Posted - October 15 2006 : 11:02:31 PM
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We had numerous issues with the Hydrashok, in both 124 and 147gr, the 147s failed to expand at all in OISs that we had involving it. The 124s would either fail to expand or overexpand and fragment.
The 147 and 124 +p Gold Dots perform almost exactly the same in gello. The fact that the +p round hits harder and cycles the weapon more reliably means something to me. The fact that the +p round has a very good track record on the street means alot to me as well.
I would have to beg to differ as to whether or not the sub-sonics are a good load for a Glock 26.
Slowing a bullet down so that it doesn't fail has always seemed to be backwards to me. When rounds such as the .300 Win mag had penetration issues on game the ultimate solution wasn't slowing it to 30-06 speeds, it was to design better bullets. In handguns, bullets like the Gold Dot and DPX are the answer as far as I see it.
I also believe temp cavity counts for something. The fact that it doesn't cause permanent tissue damage doen't mean that it doesn't count. A good baton strike to the thigh doesn't cause permanent tissue damage but the bad guy normally ends up on the deck none the less. |
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Evan
Administrator
27524 Posts |
Posted - October 16 2006 : 04:12:00 AM
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| Chuck-agree about temp cavity-just because we can't quanitfy or measure something does not mean it doesn't exist |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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Terry
Moderator
USA
5481 Posts |
Posted - October 16 2006 : 10:52:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wpdunit30
I have also determined that 147 grain bullets will perform as good if not better out of a Glock 26 than 17.
Like Chuck, I wouldn't be so sure that an already slow bullet will perform better when coming out of a short barrel.
The 147gr loads have improved fantastically but they really are at a disadvantage from short barrels.
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"Simplicity is the last step of art, and the beginning of nature" Bruce Lee
von hier an blind |
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nightlighter12
Senior Member
USA
986 Posts |
Posted - October 18 2006 : 10:20:01 AM
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Budgets a little tight presently to get some more DPX, I'm wondering if there's any advantage to switching to GD124+P (which I already have) for the winter or just staying with the standard CB115+P. Gun is the G-19, only 9 grains of weight difference between the bullets.
Armed civilian/security. |
Chance favors the prepared mind. Louis Pasteur |
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Terry
Moderator
USA
5481 Posts |
Posted - October 18 2006 : 11:52:44 AM
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| Stay with what you have. The standard CB JHP works fine. |
"Simplicity is the last step of art, and the beginning of nature" Bruce Lee
von hier an blind |
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enidpd804
Advanced Member
1176 Posts |
Posted - October 18 2006 : 12:46:51 PM
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| Yep. |
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nightlighter12
Senior Member
USA
986 Posts |
Posted - October 19 2006 : 02:24:45 AM
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| Thanks, will do. |
Chance favors the prepared mind. Louis Pasteur |
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Evan
Administrator
27524 Posts |
Posted - October 19 2006 : 07:43:44 AM
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| having returned to the 9MM and Glock, mine are loaded with DPX. |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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TeamCorbon
Senior Member
USA
561 Posts |
Posted - October 19 2006 : 10:56:36 AM
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Evan,
Why the switch to the Glock 9? Was there any problem with the M&P 40 you were carrying?
Mike |
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nightlighter12
Senior Member
USA
986 Posts |
Posted - October 19 2006 : 12:05:31 PM
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My G-19 IS loaded with the DPX that I have, 2 spare mags of cb115+p
Charter Arms 2" .38 w/Fed non+p110gr hydrashock & 1-speedloader & Beretta .32 w/cbhp |
Chance favors the prepared mind. Louis Pasteur |
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Topic |
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Best 9mm duty round for P.D.
