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Evan
Administrator
27510 Posts |
 Posted - July 30 2006 : 07:13:37 AM
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| we sell the 127gr +p+ without problems to pistol carriers every day |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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Jim Higginbotham
Moderator
USA
6228 Posts |
Posted - July 30 2006 : 08:51:17 AM
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There is a lot of hype floating around about pressure and the 9mm.
First one neeeds to understand that there are very few locked breech or delayed blowback SMGs (the H&K MP-5 is a noteable exception).
Most handguns will take far more pressure than the typical SMG. In fact a good friend routinely fired handloads in his Browning "half-power" that I thought were a bit over the top (H.P. White labs actually confirmed this when someone sent them off to be tested). He tried them in an UZI that he won and it blew the case up and broke the extractor and I think bent the dust cover.
Some noteable authorities on the Browning suggest that the +P+ may be a bit much for that gun. While that has not been my experience (I shoot a lot of Win +P+ 127gr when I do shoot a 9mm) I will bow to their expertise but I sure have never noticed any problems myself.
The bottom line for me is that if I cannot shoot it in a quality handgun it sure is not going to be fired in an UZI, Sten or S&W 76 and for sure not in a MAC.
An MP-5, OK we have handloaded 147s to over 1300 fps in a friends MP-5 with no problems other than the brass is heavily grooved by the chamber. That was way too much of a specialty load and we dropped the idea.
Jim H.
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GLV
Moderator
USA
8188 Posts |
Posted - July 30 2006 : 08:52:01 AM
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The Speer 115gr +P+ was tested in gelatin in 2003 at the Hoot & Shoot. Information should be in 'Test Bed'.
Depending on the state of my ammo locker, this load is often carried in my BHP, and at times in my H&KP7M8.
Added: Search using words 'shooting jello' in subject of search format.  |
'the world is round everywhere'
'The meek will inherit the earth, but only after the last soldier has left it to them in his will' |
Edited by - GLV on July 30 2006 08:56:59 AM |
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nsmike
Senior Member
643 Posts |
Posted - July 30 2006 : 3:36:19 PM
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The problem with submachinegun ammo in pistols tends to be hard primers not pressure. The one exception is ammo manufactured for use in arctic conditions. This ammo manufactured by Hirtinberger is a special case. The stories of the Brits cracking frames on their Hipowers all relate back to the use of this ammunition at normal tempetures. All other commonly available submachinegun ammo tends to duplicate Nato spec ammo.
Mike |
Edited by - nsmike on July 30 2006 3:37:06 PM |
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Chuck
Advanced Member
USA
2673 Posts |
Posted - August 01 2006 : 07:20:00 AM
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The 127 is just fine in your S&W, those are very tough guns.
The +p and +p+ Gold Dot is very good ammo. My department issues the 124 +p Gold Dot, which we are very happy with, but the 115 +p+ is very similar in performance and I'd carry it without a second thought if that's what I had. If it is both reliable and very accurate in your guns then you're good to go. |
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Evan
Administrator
27510 Posts |
Posted - August 02 2006 : 1:43:49 PM
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| we sell all the so-called "LE Only" ammo over the counter in our shop as there's no law against civilians possessing it. |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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J Adams
Average Member
294 Posts |
Posted - August 03 2006 : 11:03:42 AM
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| If I remeber right I think Stephen Camp used the 127 gr +P+ successfully on a small deer once or twice in his interesting writings re: the Browning Hi Power. |
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bigbadwolf
Advanced Member
USA
1636 Posts |
Posted - August 03 2006 : 3:00:15 PM
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Agreed about the S&W. Sorry I didn't mention it earlier. I am much more familiar w/ their wheelguns (I've had a M-66 2-12" since I was 15. ) than their autos, who like the Ruger P- -series, lack the "sexy, cool factor" of their European counterparts, but I've heard few complaints other than ergonomics (many models don't feel right in my hand, but I really like the M-39), W, the exeption of the Sigma, wich I understand to be a mixed bag/hit-or-miss firearm. For guns in that price range, you can get a Ruger P-series, any number of Taurus autoloaders, Kec Tec P-11, and a few other guns that have proven quality reputations, or save up a few hundred more and get a Glock, or XD, the pistols most similar in operation, or a used Sig or Browning HP.
I like the Win Ranger 127 gn+P+ alot, and an not suprised Stephan took a small deer w/ it. There have been some major improvements made to the round since its original "Black Talon" (what a PR nightmare!) days.
Gold Dot mades a good, sound 9mm round used by several big depts. and may be one of the best "all around" 9mm JHP rounds for SD. (medium weight, performs well out of both short and long barrels, good bullet design, decent pentetrationa nd expantion just doesn't have a cool, deadly-sounding name like "Hydra Shok" or "Golden Sabre", which are also good rounds. There may be some rounds that out perorm it in one aspect or another, or in the case of DPX, the Jimi Hendrix of bullet designs, all aspects, but I would not feel underarmed if my HP were loaded w the +P Got Dot) . |
"Better a warrior in the garden than a gardener at war"
-Japanese proverb |
Edited by - bigbadwolf on August 04 2006 5:56:27 PM |
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Gray_Rider
Average Member
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - August 22 2006 : 8:55:42 PM
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Mr. Evan,
Just a quick question? What about the Hirtenburger 100 grain FL bullet?
I have not seen any comparison of it to any more modern expanding bullet. From what I have been able to gather, it was originally built for use against terrorists in Europe, and is +P so I don't expect it to be a slouch for penetration and stopping power, even for a 9mm.
I got a few hundred rounds of it years ago and still have a few boxes left.
I got a almost new late model Glock 17 for $300.00 last June, and I have loaded its mags with the Hirtenberger rounds and use it as my rec room gun. Should someone kick in my front door, while Karen and I are watching TV in the ajoining room, I want a lot of firepower and a load of punch. What is the story on this round?
Thanks in advance
Gray_Rider |
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pcolvario
Junior Member
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - August 22 2006 : 10:06:13 PM
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| Gray_Rider If I wanted a super lightweight bullet that was effective, I would probably go with the PowRball. It would not be my first choice, but if I were a true disciple of light and fast, that bullet seems to get the job done very well. Those Hirtenberger rounds are just softpoints if I am not mistaken, and I really would be trying for something that has tested reliable expansion. |
Perfect is the enemy of good enough. |
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Chuck
Advanced Member
USA
2673 Posts |
Posted - August 24 2006 : 8:28:20 PM
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The Hirtenberger SP is not nearly as fast as it's advertised, and in testing it in water I found it doesn't expand at all. The bullets I recovered could have been reloaded and fired again.
As I recall it was advertised as doing like 1500pfs or so, I recall it being in the low 1200s over my crono.
I strongly feel it's a 9mm rabbit hunting and/or plinking load, there are far better loads to be carrying in your 9mm. Almost any other 9mm load would be better for SD. |
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Gray_Rider
Average Member
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - August 26 2006 : 11:10:24 AM
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Thanks guys. I appreciate greatly your input. I'll use the Hirts for target practice, and use get some proven stoppers, like you fine folks recommend! I knew I could count on this site for the right stuff!
My wife Karen, loves my Glock 27 and her own 26. I want her to have the best lead she can put in the air if its going to be 9mm.
She's about 5' 4", but shoots that 27 and 26 like she was born w/ them in her hands. Had never shot anything but arcade guns till then and was "afraid of guns".
She took to shooting like General Forrest took to attacking the Union Army!
"Ride like you rode with Forrest!"
Gray_Rider |
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dullh
Average Member
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2008 : 10:45:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by John L. Carp
Good evening;
I am an LEO and am blessed with being able to obtain all of the LEO only 9mm loadings.
No "blessing" there...I am not an LEO and I have a case of 127gr +P+ in my possession. As stated earlier, there's no law against us regular folk having and carrying it, I think all those vicious warnings stamped all over the box are for limited liability - the manufacturer maybe doesn't want to be blamed if somebody uses it in grandpa's vintage Luger?
The biggest problem with the so-called LE-only loads is finding a reliable source. Most sometimes have it, sometimes not. I would rather become acquainted with a load that is 1) just as effective and mostly 2) easier to find!
Oh and for what's it worth to answer the original question, since I have never had to use it for it's intended purpose, my favorites go:
1) Federal 9BP
2) 124gr +P GDHP
3) 127gr +P+ Ranger
I like federal 9BP because it has a track record, shoots to POA in all handguns, easy to shoot and easy to find in bulk. 124gr +P GDHP easy to find, shoots to POA (like the 9BP does) doesn't beat up the guns bad but the Kahr doesn't like it. 127gr +P+ Glock and Kahr love it but snappier and harder to find.
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I've been to all the other forums; that's why this one is the *only* I frequent. |
Edited by - dullh on May 23 2008 11:36:54 AM |
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Stephen A. Camp
Senior Member
644 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2008 : 9:39:31 PM
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Hello. Speaking only for myself, my current 9mm loads of choice for self-protection primarily fired from a Hi Power:
1. Corbon 115-gr. DPX +P
2. Speer 124-gr. GDHP +P
3. Winchester 127-gr. +P+
4. Remington 124-gr. GS +P
5. Speer 124-gr. GDHP (Std. Pressure)
6. Federal 115-gr. JHP (Std. Pressure)
While I still believe that placement is a very important determinant in "stopping power", I do believe that DPX is as good as it gets in 9mm.
Best. |
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Evan
Administrator
27510 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2008 : 05:38:55 AM
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| 9BPLE is hard on guns and the tests we did with 9MM DPX put everything else in perspective. |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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gauchobill
Average Member
281 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2008 : 07:57:43 AM
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I hate to betray my ignorance but will do so: What do the designations "9BP" or "9BPLE" mean? I have figured out the meaning of about 98% of the acronyms or letters used to designate handgun loads, but I've never deciphered these.
Thanks for explaining. |
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mojo
Advanced Member
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2008 : 08:29:11 AM
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| 9BP is Federal's catalogue number for the Classic 115 gr standard pressure 9mm loading. 9BPLE is the catalogue number for the Classic 115 gr +P+ loading it is a "law enforcement load." |
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials.
To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
-George Mason |
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gauchobill
Average Member
281 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2008 : 09:38:11 AM
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| Thanks!! |
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mrheythere
Starting Member
13 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2008 : 9:36:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephen A. Camp
Hello. Speaking only for myself, my current 9mm loads of choice for self-protection primarily fired from a Hi Power:
1. Corbon 115-gr. DPX +P
2. Speer 124-gr. GDHP +P
3. Winchester 127-gr. +P+
4. Remington 124-gr. GS +P
5. Speer 124-gr. GDHP (Std. Pressure)
6. Federal 115-gr. JHP (Std. Pressure)
While I still believe that placement is a very important determinant in "stopping power", I do believe that DPX is as good as it gets in 9mm.
Best.
Mr. Camp,
Thank you for your post. I enjoy reading all this information. Out of curiosity, I ask why there is no mention of Federal HST in your list. I understand it to be performing well from my limited reading and was curious whether you had tested it and formed an opinion on the HST product. Thank you. |
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Russ Larges
Moderator
USA
1692 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2008 : 09:04:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Evan
9BPLE is hard on guns and the tests we did with 9MM DPX put everything else in perspective.
9bple may well be hard on guns, but it is what I use in my G19. We shot it into gello at the H&S last summer and with four layers of denim it open perfectly. I do not shoot alot of it but do shoot a handload that pushes the 115 gr. bullet to the same speed.
I know you are not knocking this load, this is just the way I do it.
Russ |
The pistol, learn it well, carry it allways. Jeff Cooper |
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Evan
Administrator
27510 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2008 : 12:52:17 PM
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I never argue with a Biker
I'm not worried about Glocks handling 9BPLE |
"The greatest thing a Father can do for his children is to love their Mother."
Harold B. Lee
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Olddog84
Junior Member
USA
201 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2008 : 1:53:54 PM
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Well, since I have no qualifications whatsoever, I would only say this:
I love the 9BPLE, Cor-Bon 115gr+P, Gold Dot 124gr+P, Winchester 127gr+P+, and I carry whichever of these I have on hand at the moment without any reservations whatsoever. Paraphrasing others, I dont think a felon is going to be able to tell the difference between one or the other. As far as DPX goes, I dont see any difference between guns and ammo: I dont want to be a "beta tester" for a new gun design or an ammo design: as promising as it looks, the ground breaking aspect of Evan's book and research is to see what worked in actual shootings, not in the test lab, so until I start hearing some reports of how it works on bad guys, I will stick with those listed above that have a large track record for working in the real world. |
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Stephen A. Camp
Senior Member
644 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2008 : 8:59:42 PM
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Hello, mrheythere. I just never got around to shooting the load you mentioned. In std pressure, I still like and trust the 115-gr. Federal JHP and the 115-gr. DPX +P is proving very, very hard to beat in my opinion.
Best. |
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mrheythere
Starting Member
13 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2008 : 11:25:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephen A. Camp
Hello, mrheythere. I just never got around to shooting the load you mentioned. In std pressure, I still like and trust the 115-gr. Federal JHP and the 115-gr. DPX +P is proving very, very hard to beat in my opinion.
Best.
Thank you |
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WSUcougar
Junior Member
167 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2008 : 12:52:52 AM
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I know I'm a newbie, And I've always heard not to do this, And I've never tried it myself.
But while we're on the the topic of the picking the "best" 6 loads, we can only put one magazine in each of the guns we carry.
Why would we not put a bullet of each design in the same mag? I read several gun testing reviews where the authors test guns by mixing up different ammo in the same mag but it's always followed by "the XgunX ran flawlessly"
If, say we put a DPX followed by a pow'rBall then a Glasser safety slug followed by a gold dot, into a mag and ran it through the gun "flawlessly" why couldn't we have the best of both worlds and not worry about each round's strengths and weaknesses as far as penetration, expansion, barriers, velocity, +p whatever?
I guess my real question is why have we been told that mixing mags is unsafe? And if the reliability is there why would we chose only one "top six" round to carry?
By the way, I carry a G19 and G26 with DPX in the 19 and Gold dot 124+p in the 26. Don't know why. Just tested the rounds in the respective guns as I bought them and haven't had a reason to change.
-coug |
Awareness, Confidence and Assertiveness. If that fails, Immediate Violence of Action and Maneuver. |
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Top Six Loads for 9mm?
