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T O P I C    R E V I E W
oldmuleskinner Posted - October 29 2017 : 12:05:22 AM
Last Saturday my 10 year old granddaughter shot her first deer, a 4x4 whitetail buck with my Marlin .357 carbine. Her daddy was standing next to her, whispering in her ear. She was pretty excited when it went down and even helped with the gutting. That night, she was a big help with the skinning in my garage. A couple nights later, we cut it up in our kitchen. I was amazed that it didn’t gross her out at all.

The rifle was loaded with handloaded Hornady 125 gr hollowpoints. That is the same round that I carried in my 6” Combat Magnum when I was a cop back in the 70’s. The bullet broke a rib going in and shredded both lungs and stopped just under the skin in the opposite shoulder. The buck dropped where it stood and hardly twitched. I recovered the bullet and it was expanded to about .60. I would guess that the bullet weighed about 85-90 grains. I don’t know for sure, because my dog found it and ate it before I could clean the meat from it.

My granddaughter and her dad are going out after elk this next weekend, but I have to go to the Seattle area on business. I would prefer that she use my Marlin in 44 mag, but she is afraid of the recoil. Her dad will keep any shot within 25 to 50 yards and only let her take a broadside, double lung shot. If I had had the time, I would have loaded and tested some 158 gr soft points for her, but I think that the 125 grainers will work just fine, especially after seeing what the .357 did on her deer.

Her dad and I are bow hunters and he shot his first deer with a bow at about 40 yards when he was also 10 years old. Watching him shoot that deer was the biggest hunting thrill that I ever had, and I think that he felt the same when Kyla shot her first deer last week. Bow season opens up in a little over three weeks and I’m ready. I’m now using a crossbow due to having had shoulder surgery a couple of years back.
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Jim Higginbotham Posted - November 08 2017 : 08:54:50 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

Bill;

I guess you read that early on after offering that load a fella killed not one but two Cape Buffalo with one shot of that load - yeah, it will do.

If you don't have Cape Buffalo then a Kenworth might do

I live my Marlin 1895 - it is a 4 digit serial number. It took a record book deer here in KY - but it wasn't me shooting, I loaned it to a neighbor. It was my handloads though.

Jim


Jim, sounds like you live in a ‘nice neighborhood’!

I know we can’t share loading data, but I’d be interested in knowing what bullet you handloaded and how fast it left the muzzle...





It has been a while but I'm pretty sure it was a classic load from the Lyman manual of a 405 gr Win. JSP at around 1850 fps.

Jim
Jim Higginbotham Posted - November 08 2017 : 08:52:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gw

TR was also blind as a bat since birth!

we killed an old bison bull on my uncles place back in the day, he had 5 he was cross breeding with cattle

one round of 30-06 AP straight on into he skull was all it took. they dug the bullet out his kneck when the butchered it



Yep there is that too, and in fact totally blind in one eye (I forget which one) since a boxer hit him in it while he was President.

Jim.
LittleBill Posted - November 07 2017 : 4:24:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gw

quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

Barnes makes a .45-70 load, 300gr TSX @ 1900 fps, 2400 foot-lbs, that might be easier on the shoulder, but still ‘very sufficient’ on the receiving end for most situations...





my .444 300gr XTP load hits about 2100fps out of the Outfitter short barrel

being a pistol bullet it has a come appart at that velocity up close

I'm not up on the Barnes bullet and it's designed velocity envelope

I'm inclined towards a heat treated lead solid in these anyway, I sold my .45-70 this year and don't have my data in front of me.

but a favorite commercial bullet for the .444 is the Cast Performance LBT Series gas-checked cast 300gr bullet

same load as the XTP gives about the same 2100fps

the FP solid seems like a more useful load, but the hollow point might work on anything you don't intend to eat, otherwise the hollow point will chew your meat for you.....

the porting on those short Marlins is a big help in my opinion


Glad to hear that, my 18.5” Guide Gun is ported.

Ace Posted - November 07 2017 : 2:54:49 PM
Thank you, sir. Ace
gw Posted - November 07 2017 : 1:09:25 PM
I don't notice, and I've fired it without hearing protection out hunting, still can't hear just like before I fired it....

I got one of those BOSS muzzle brakes on a 30-06, I don't notice noise or blast and the rifle is accurate in the extreme. I thought I'd cut the ugly thing off but it's a sub moa rifle, so I left it alone.

both devices seem to reduce recoil
Ace Posted - November 07 2017 : 09:51:35 AM
gw, how much flash comes out of those ports? I have seen a few ported handguns fired, but all my years, the closest thing I've seen on a rifle would be a muzzle brake. Ace
gw Posted - November 07 2017 : 09:28:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

Barnes makes a .45-70 load, 300gr TSX @ 1900 fps, 2400 foot-lbs, that might be easier on the shoulder, but still ‘very sufficient’ on the receiving end for most situations...





my .444 300gr XTP load hits about 2100fps out of the Outfitter short barrel

being a pistol bullet it has a come appart at that velocity up close

I'm not up on the Barnes bullet and it's designed velocity envelope

I'm inclined towards a heat treated lead solid in these anyway, I sold my .45-70 this year and don't have my data in front of me.

but a favorite commercial bullet for the .444 is the Cast Performance LBT Series gas-checked cast 300gr bullet

same load as the XTP gives about the same 2100fps

the FP solid seems like a more useful load, but the hollow point might work on anything you don't intend to eat, otherwise the hollow point will chew your meat for you.....

the porting on those short Marlins is a big help in my opinion
LittleBill Posted - November 07 2017 : 08:21:43 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

Bill;

I guess you read that early on after offering that load a fella killed not one but two Cape Buffalo with one shot of that load - yeah, it will do.

If you don't have Cape Buffalo then a Kenworth might do

I live my Marlin 1895 - it is a 4 digit serial number. It took a record book deer here in KY - but it wasn't me shooting, I loaned it to a neighbor. It was my handloads though.

Jim


Jim, sounds like you live in a ‘nice neighborhood’!

I know we can’t share loading data, but I’d be interested in knowing what bullet you handloaded and how fast it left the muzzle...

LittleBill Posted - November 07 2017 : 08:17:00 AM
Barnes makes a .45-70 load, 300gr TSX @ 1900 fps, 2400 foot-lbs, that might be easier on the shoulder, but still ‘very sufficient’ on the receiving end for most situations...

gw Posted - November 07 2017 : 08:05:11 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Some idiots in the western side of the state, some years ago, got a one-shot kill on an escaped buffalo--young bull, as I recall--with a .243, dunno what brand/design bullet, but they had been on a deer hunting trip. So, by that one example, apparently .243 is a viable buffalo hunting round.

Oh, and they followed the thing around for a couple hours, waiting for it to fall down; something about didn't want to use up their ammo or put a bunch of holes in the hide or wanted 'bragging rights' about killing a buffalo with one shot from a .243 or something. Like I said, idiots. Ace



There was an interesting article way back when, perhaps by Jack Lott? Turns out that by the late 1930s one of the national parks, I think maybe Custer in SD, had more buffalo than the browse would carry over the winter.

Some govt. hunters came in and decided to cull them with 30-06 and .300 H&H (.300 Win mag had not been invented). It turned out that anywhere between 5 and 9 hits were required and they were mostly culling females and calves. JD Jones wrote of shooting a bull with a .270 Winchester - it took 5 hits.

A maintenance worker there told them it was shameful to shoot these critters like that. He went home and got his old buffalo gun, a Sharps which I think may have been a 45-90 or 45-110 - it wasn't the "big 50".

He shot the critters and they went down with one hit each - I am told that it is actually on film and in the 1940 movie "Buffalo Bill" starring Joel McRae. In any case the scene is obviously real and even running buffalo collapse right there on the spot (you can see the dust on the hill behind some after the exit).

Jim H.


I just bought a JM Marlin 1895 .45-70 'Guide Gun', no need for it in my present situation, but it was in mint condition, the price was right and I couldn't resist. I'm unlikely to encounter a buffalo or grizz where I live, but just in case...





you saw a lot of those on the used rack barely fired

" For Sale, lightweight 45-70 thumper, kills on both ends"

apperently too much fun...

mines a .444 Outfitter by the way, shot a small whitetail with a 300gr XTP hollow point hand load at about 40 yards

yep, it killed it all right!!

tenderized most of it too
Jim Higginbotham Posted - November 07 2017 : 08:02:44 AM
Bill;

I guess you read that early on after offering that load a fella killed not one but two Cape Buffalo with one shot of that load - yeah, it will do.

If you don't have Cape Buffalo then a Kenworth might do

I live my Marlin 1895 - it is a 4 digit serial number. It took a record book deer here in KY - but it wasn't me shooting, I loaned it to a neighbor. It was my handloads though.

Jim
LittleBill Posted - November 07 2017 : 06:33:31 AM
Only one way to find out... Garrett Cartridges sells a +P ‘Hammerhead’ load (540gr hardcast @ 1550 fps) that looks promising....

And I think one of my neighbors just bought an F-150.... I’ll keep you posted....

Ace Posted - November 06 2017 : 8:47:43 PM
Otta work on cars and mid-size trucks, too, with the right load.
Wonder which bullet gives the best penetration\expansion ratio on, say, a Ford F150? Ace
LittleBill Posted - November 06 2017 : 11:36:42 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Some idiots in the western side of the state, some years ago, got a one-shot kill on an escaped buffalo--young bull, as I recall--with a .243, dunno what brand/design bullet, but they had been on a deer hunting trip. So, by that one example, apparently .243 is a viable buffalo hunting round.

Oh, and they followed the thing around for a couple hours, waiting for it to fall down; something about didn't want to use up their ammo or put a bunch of holes in the hide or wanted 'bragging rights' about killing a buffalo with one shot from a .243 or something. Like I said, idiots. Ace



There was an interesting article way back when, perhaps by Jack Lott? Turns out that by the late 1930s one of the national parks, I think maybe Custer in SD, had more buffalo than the browse would carry over the winter.

Some govt. hunters came in and decided to cull them with 30-06 and .300 H&H (.300 Win mag had not been invented). It turned out that anywhere between 5 and 9 hits were required and they were mostly culling females and calves. JD Jones wrote of shooting a bull with a .270 Winchester - it took 5 hits.

A maintenance worker there told them it was shameful to shoot these critters like that. He went home and got his old buffalo gun, a Sharps which I think may have been a 45-90 or 45-110 - it wasn't the "big 50".

He shot the critters and they went down with one hit each - I am told that it is actually on film and in the 1940 movie "Buffalo Bill" starring Joel McRae. In any case the scene is obviously real and even running buffalo collapse right there on the spot (you can see the dust on the hill behind some after the exit).

Jim H.


I just bought a JM Marlin 1895 .45-70 'Guide Gun', no need for it in my present situation, but it was in mint condition, the price was right and I couldn't resist. I'm unlikely to encounter a buffalo or grizz where I live, but just in case...

gw Posted - November 06 2017 : 08:52:02 AM
TR was also blind as a bat since birth!

we killed an old bison bull on my uncles place back in the day, he had 5 he was cross breeding with cattle

one round of 30-06 AP straight on into he skull was all it took. they dug the bullet out his kneck when the butchered it
Jim Higginbotham Posted - November 06 2017 : 08:34:04 AM
GW I think it was TR that said: "I am not a particularly good shot but I shoot often."

Jim
jle3030 Posted - November 05 2017 : 7:12:11 PM
I feel like I'm reading Elmer Keith all over again.

Jeff
Jim Higginbotham Posted - November 05 2017 : 6:02:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Some idiots in the western side of the state, some years ago, got a one-shot kill on an escaped buffalo--young bull, as I recall--with a .243, dunno what brand/design bullet, but they had been on a deer hunting trip. So, by that one example, apparently .243 is a viable buffalo hunting round.

Oh, and they followed the thing around for a couple hours, waiting for it to fall down; something about didn't want to use up their ammo or put a bunch of holes in the hide or wanted 'bragging rights' about killing a buffalo with one shot from a .243 or something. Like I said, idiots. Ace



There was an interesting article way back when, perhaps by Jack Lott? Turns out that by the late 1930s one of the national parks, I think maybe Custer in SD, had more buffalo than the browse would carry over the winter.

Some govt. hunters came in and decided to cull them with 30-06 and .300 H&H (.300 Win mag had not been invented). It turned out that anywhere between 5 and 9 hits were required and they were mostly culling females and calves. JD Jones wrote of shooting a bull with a .270 Winchester - it took 5 hits.

A maintenance worker there told them it was shameful to shoot these critters like that. He went home and got his old buffalo gun, a Sharps which I think may have been a 45-90 or 45-110 - it wasn't the "big 50".

He shot the critters and they went down with one hit each - I am told that it is actually on film and in the 1940 movie "Buffalo Bill" starring Joel McRae. In any case the scene is obviously real and even running buffalo collapse right there on the spot (you can see the dust on the hill behind some after the exit).

Jim H.
Ace Posted - November 05 2017 : 3:40:55 PM
Some idiots in the western side of the state, some years ago, got a one-shot kill on an escaped buffalo--young bull, as I recall--with a .243, dunno what brand/design bullet, but they had been on a deer hunting trip. So, by that one example, apparently .243 is a viable buffalo hunting round.

Oh, and they followed the thing around for a couple hours, waiting for it to fall down; something about didn't want to use up their ammo or put a bunch of holes in the hide or wanted 'bragging rights' about killing a buffalo with one shot from a .243 or something. Like I said, idiots. Ace
LittleBill Posted - November 05 2017 : 10:12:38 AM
It’s climate change, clearly it’s making the critters tougher, and the people softer... and dumber...

Present company excepted, of course!
gw Posted - November 05 2017 : 09:43:14 AM
the oldtimers were good hunters, but notoriously poor judges of distance

you read Teddy Roosevelt's own books they lobbed rifle rounds at ridiculously long ranges into large deer until they got a hit, great wasters of game by today's standard.

still, those old slow blackpowder guns stacked up impressive piles of venison

folks using blackpowder .44-40 today still knock down big deer out to a hundred yards or so, with little meat damaged

unless deer and elk have gotten tougher in the last hundred years.....
LittleBill Posted - November 05 2017 : 09:26:42 AM
Very interesting, definitely puts things in perspective.

Buffalo Bore’s 180gr Outdoorsman load in .357 Magnum leaves the barrel of an 18” Marlin carbine at 1850 fps.

Their 200gr .44 Mag ‘Anti-personnel’ load clocks at 1200 fps from a 4” S&W Mountain Gun— giving the exact same ballistic performance as the .44-40 rifle load GW talks about, that hunters were raving about at the time for its ability to kill elk out to 400 yds!

Times— and standards— have definitely changed!
gw Posted - November 05 2017 : 08:15:53 AM
ever wonder how many elk and deer were killed with a .44-40 Winchester original blackpowder load.

that was a 200gr conical solid @1200 fps, it wouldn't touch a good .357 out of a carbine.

folks used the .44-40 well into the 20th century on everything including moose and bear, probably couldn't pry it from their cold dead hands
j
from a turn of the century Winchester sales add, note the last one:


..."I have fully tested the late improved Winchester Rifle and take pleasure in stating that it is the best rifle I have ever used. I have killed a number of deer, at distances from one to two hundred yards and in every instance, the bullet passed clean through the body."
..."I killed at a full gallop, at about 100 yards distant, a very large buckwith a splendid set of antlers with the first shot. The bullet struck him in the shoulder, as he ran toward me, and after traversing the entire length of his body, tearing the lights and paunch into atoms in its course, it passed out behind through the thickest part of the ham."
..."The killing qualities, at large game, is all that could be desired, to the wonder and admiration of the guides and sportsmen who saw its working during my visit to the Adirondack woods last fall."
..."I can say for one, that I think the Winchester Model of 1873 is the best firearm now in use for hunting and sporting; they give the best satisfaction to every one that has used them here. James Gary and C.S. Martin have killed 17 bears and 100 deer since the first of September with Model 1873.
..."For a sporting rifle, I think the Winchester Rifle is excelled by none. I have killed antelope, deer, and elk, with my gun, at from 200 to 400 yards. I would not exchange it for any other rifle."

colt357 Posted - November 05 2017 : 12:46:33 AM
Years ago Winchester sold a .357 mag 180 grain Nosler Partition load that they branded as their 180 grain .357 Partition Gold load under their Supreme line. It was deadly on whitetail from a carbine and it expanded nicely and penetrated deeply. However, it has been discontinued now for several years.

More recently Federal was selling a .357 mag loading of a 180 Grain Swift A-Frame. Kind of like an updated and bonded version of the old Nosler partition bullet. The A-Frames are pretty universally viewed as reliable expanders and deep penetrators. I picked up a couple of boxes of them a while back and they seem consistent and very accurate out of my Winchester model 92 but I have not shot anything that bleeds with them yet.

A quick look around the internet shows that even that federal load seems pretty hard to find now. Hopefully it is still being made.

Colt
Pop Pop Posted - November 04 2017 : 07:10:28 AM
Great times. Brings back memories of yester year for me. Wish he was still here. Hoping for success for her today.

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