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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Arvinator Posted - June 06 2019 : 07:31:54 AM
I'm seeing many departments switch back to the 9MM as primary caliber for sidearm. The FBI, many small departments and soon the Arkansas State Police.
I've heard rapid follow up shots, higher scores, and more rounds on the duty belt.

I'm hoping this will put the odds more in the good guys favor.

I've personally would carry (when allowed) a 9MM over .40, loaded with +P or +P+ ammo.


Stay safe everyone.
17   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
stykshooter Posted - June 17 2019 : 12:26:40 PM
"Glock has made a career out of this"- Exactly

When I was head instructor for the regional academy I was constantly inundated with products from cleaning supplies, holsters, ammo, etc. Wanted me to give it a thumbs up so the various agencies would buy from the reps and then they could use that as marketing hype. An interesting aside.... there is a lot of weird crap that comes out that never makes it and most people have never heard of it. From sighting systems to cleaning supplies.
Chris Christian Posted - June 16 2019 : 11:36:33 AM
quote:
Originally posted by WR Moore

I haven't seen this mentioned, so I'll bring it up: the gun makers developing their very own cartridge/gun and then going to departments and making the "Such a deal we have for you!" pitch. I heard well sourced rumors over the Virginia State Police change from 9 mm Sigs to .357 Sigs. They aren't the only case in history.

As for the low prices noted somewhere above on .357 Sig ammo prices, could be left over stock made for the tidal wave of demand that didn't happen.



Excellent point. The cop market is large, but not unified. The consumer market is larger, and sometimes gullible. When a maker can claim "X% of law enforcement agencies rely on our X gun"... they have a strong marketing tool to sell to the public.

From a long term standpoint, taking less profit from cops to get their advertising claim for the civilian market makes sense. Glock has made a career out of this.
WR Moore Posted - June 16 2019 : 10:06:18 AM
I haven't seen this mentioned, so I'll bring it up: the gun makers developing their very own cartridge/gun and then going to departments and making the "Such a deal we have for you!" pitch. I heard well sourced rumors over the Virginia State Police change from 9 mm Sigs to .357 Sigs. They aren't the only case in history.

As for the low prices noted somewhere above on .357 Sig ammo prices, could be left over stock made for the tidal wave of demand that didn't happen.
Ace Posted - June 14 2019 : 8:52:28 PM
Now styk, you're gonna mess things up, using common sense like that. It may be time for some remedial training. Ace
stykshooter Posted - June 14 2019 : 6:25:36 PM
I was a young range officer working the range when my department transitioned from .357 revolvers to 9mm Smith & Wessons. We had several shootings with the 9mm's using premium ammunition, for the times, that were very disappointing. I remember recovering two of our bullets that went through a subject's chest, then a closet door and I recovered them in a windbreaker jacket hanging in the closet. No expansion or deformation. Then we transitioned to the .40 and happily carried it for 25 plus years. Last fall I once again transitioned our agency from Gen 4 Glock 22's to Gen 5 Glock 17's in 9mm. After doing a lot of testing with ATK and Winchester, plus on our own, I feel that some of the newer 9mm rounds will hold their own with most any .40 or .45 round. It comes down to bullet construction... things have come a long ways in the last 30 years. We are carrying a 127 grain +P+ round that has absolutely amazing terminal performance.

State bid ammunition prices allow me to purchase more 9mm than .40 for the same price, which translates to more trigger time for the officers. The lower recoil of the 9mm coupled with the accuracy and shootability of the Gen 5 G-17 has shown a dramatic increase in our officer's scores as well as their confidence.
jle3030 Posted - June 12 2019 : 4:58:44 PM
The bean counters are only interested in their beans and have no concept of the larger picture. My daughter tells of being the head of our city's police department training division during the past ammunition shortage. Contracts for ammo purchase were let on a quarterly basis; a bulk order for the entire department. It all went through her training section, Nationwide shortage of supply had the backorder time at four to six months. When the fall order was to arrive the invoice was slightly (less than $10 dollars IIRC) in excess of the contracted amount. Some bureaucrat at city hall saw the invoice discrepancy, flagged it, and refused/returned the entire shipment. The order was quickly enough restored and delivered, but the point is that some pencil pusher with his hands on the money faucet was willing to let the police department go without ammo for three months over a $10 dollar discrepancy between order and invoice.

Jeff
Evan Posted - June 12 2019 : 1:35:23 PM
As some on who spent 20 years with Detroit PD and then 5 1/2 years with NNSA I can tell you there are public reasons and then the real reasons.
revjen45 Posted - June 12 2019 : 11:07:27 AM
When I was shopping for a new ECG in '04 I went to the gun show with a bad case of gun lust for a Steyr S40.
With none there, the choice came down to a S9 or Cz100, IOW the right model or the sought caliber.
I'm real glad I went with caliber. 9mm is cheaper to shoot and easier on arthritic hands.
After 15 years I'm pleased with my choice the S9. Alternate CC piece is an abbreviated .45.
JMAC Posted - June 07 2019 : 4:13:11 PM
We are transitioning from the G22 Gen 4 to the G17 Gen 5 MOS in the next 90 days. For us, it comes down to...…..

- Very few officers are gun people these days.
- Doesn't have anything to do with physical stature.
- The 9mm, 40, .357 Sig, and .45 are all relatively marginal in a gunfight compared to a long gun.
- Less recoil, faster, and more accurate follow up shots.
- 20% reduction in the cost of training ammunition. This doesn't mean we will be seeing the savings. It means we are buying 20% more training ammunition.
gw Posted - June 06 2019 : 10:15:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gauchobill

Seems to me the gun and ammo manufacturers have a big stake in massaging the subject of ammo selection. All you have to do is watch the continuous marketing/switching going on in the gun media.
A few years back, Florida and Georgia state troopers carried the .45 lite or whatever it was called. Why this caliber ever came to birth mystifies me. If the increasing population of female LEOs needed something lighter why not fall back to the 9mm or give a rebirth to the .38 Super.

The same can be said for hunting rifle ammo. Look at the constellation of .300 Magnum varieties; the development of 7mm alternatives: 7mm08, .284, several 7mm Magnums, .280 Remington, .243 Win., 244 Remington, 25-06, two new 6.5 creations, .35 Remington, .351 Winchester, a couple of .338 magnums, and the now dead 8mm Remington Magnum caliber.

In each class of these caliber selections a similar variety of loads are available. For most of them there is little difference in performance in class.

I am still packing my 30-06 into the mountains of Colorado this fall to add another elk to my collection. It has taken all the big game in North America except the Grizzly/Brown bear but I wouldn't feel undergunned with it for the big bear with a good 200 grain bullet. And if I am in almost any other place in this world, I can find ammo for that rifle.



if we're talking about the .45 gap

Glock developed a cartridge that would equal the power of the.45 ACP, have a stronger case head to reduce the possibility of case neck blowouts, and shorter to fit in a more compact handgun.

an answer looking for a question

the.40 s&w was a compromise between agents that wanted a high capacity automatic and those that thought a large caliper heavy bullet was the answer

in the interim both 9mm and .45 acp was authorized

if you take the average of 9mm plus .45 you get .40 (.35 +.45 / 2 = .40)

I still think that's really as scientific as the selection was.

truth is with proper ammo the 9mm is effective and easier on the gun

the mystery is why it took so long to admit that....
Deputy25 Posted - June 06 2019 : 10:08:19 PM
My department was exploring a transition from 357 SIG (G-31) to 9mm (G-17). Oddly enough, bids for 357 SIG ammo came in well below 9mm. We are staying with 357 SIG. Go figure.
gauchobill Posted - June 06 2019 : 1:49:57 PM
Seems to me the gun and ammo manufacturers have a big stake in massaging the subject of ammo selection. All you have to do is watch the continuous marketing/switching going on in the gun media.
A few years back, Florida and Georgia state troopers carried the .45 lite or whatever it was called. Why this caliber ever came to birth mystifies me. If the increasing population of female LEOs needed something lighter why not fall back to the 9mm or give a rebirth to the .38 Super.

The same can be said for hunting rifle ammo. Look at the constellation of .300 Magnum varieties; the development of 7mm alternatives: 7mm08, .284, several 7mm Magnums, .280 Remington, .243 Win., 244 Remington, 25-06, two new 6.5 creations, .35 Remington, .351 Winchester, a couple of .338 magnums, and the now dead 8mm Remington Magnum caliber.

In each class of these caliber selections a similar variety of loads are available. For most of them there is little difference in performance in class.

I am still packing my 30-06 into the mountains of Colorado this fall to add another elk to my collection. It has taken all the big game in North America except the Grizzly/Brown bear but I wouldn't feel undergunned with it for the big bear with a good 200 grain bullet. And if I am in almost any other place in this world, I can find ammo for that rifle.
Chris Christian Posted - June 06 2019 : 12:36:53 PM
Regardless of the caliber used, hits are the only thing that count in the "positive" column. The.357 SIG, .45, 10mm, and .40 are very effective handgun calibers with the right ammo. The 9mm, with the right ammo, is also very effective. Given that (from my personal experience) most cops are not "gun people" ... and do as little shooting/practice/training as they can get away with... the shift to the lower-recoiling/higher capacity 9mm makes sense.

The ammo is also a bit cheaper, a consideration the "bean counters" place large faith in.
LittleBill Posted - June 06 2019 : 12:17:57 PM
More thoughts come to mind...

Evan Posted - June 06 2019 : 12:10:10 PM
I don't understand one responding to their own posts.
LittleBill Posted - June 06 2019 : 11:34:41 AM
It certainly is interesting to observe the back-and-forth, trial-and-error process involved in caliber selection among the various LE agencies: 9mm, to 10mm, to ‘10mm lite’/.40S&W, .357SIG, and now, back to 9mm.

One wonders what factors are driving this process: the terminal effectiveness of the various rounds, or some other factor?

If one round is better in terms of stopping power— but officers have to work harder and put in more practice time in order to master it— what’s the answer?

More range time so officers can master it?

Or switch to a less-effective— but easier to shoot— round?

LittleBill Posted - June 06 2019 : 09:27:04 AM
Could the hiring of more (smaller-statured) female officers have anything to do with it as well?


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