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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Jim Higginbotham Posted - May 17 2019 : 08:05:14 AM
I don't know if I've related this but for the last 7 years or so I've had a set of CT laser grips in my 640 "hide out" gun. I had already satisfied myself that they were pretty much a waste of time, generally speaking - for me, others may not find it so and that is certainly believable - we all have to work out our own salvation.

Last week I decided to run an agency qualification with it since the qual is shot mostly at 7 yards (that is a state mandate) but we added time limits (not too strenuous since qualification is not training - well it is if it is all you get but this agency has an ambitious training program). I wanted to demonstrate that you could easily pass the service handgun qual with a snubby.

The good news is it did work. The bad news is I was pretty close to the pretty generous time limits (not a big shock as I had done some testing with the son on Pepper Poppers at 10 yards and using the sights was twice as fast - from the low ready - as the laser).

So, as a comparison, I shot the qual with my old M-36, and the times were not only much better but the score was better as well and the group more centered.

Full power .38's (if there is such a thing) were used in both cases.

The M-36 is the old style skinny front sight but it has an orange insert.

Part of this I would attribute to the grip itself not the laser - I have the little CT grip, the bigger one would likely do better. ON my M-36 I have Pachmyer Professional open back which is about the same size as the CT but it is a good bit more Grippy.

This ended my long experiment, I ditched the CT grip and went to a covered backstrap thin grip and repainted the front sight.

I would be remiss if I did not say "mileage varies" - you have to test it for yourself, you might be the opposite.

Jim H.
12   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Jim Higginbotham Posted - May 24 2019 : 6:55:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gw

my brief exposure to lasers was using an infrared device with night vision

I thought that was slick

as a squad leader, you could direct/focus fire

but then when you figure everyone in the world has night vision, turning on a light at night lost it's appeal.......



Our military guys had those, they had a heck of time figuring out how to zero them (it's in the manual). They did OK on night qual when we finally figured it out.


Jim H.

gw Posted - May 21 2019 : 10:08:23 AM
my brief exposure to lasers was using an infrared device with night vision

I thought that was slick

as a squad leader, you could direct/focus fire

but then when you figure everyone in the world has night vision, turning on a light at night lost it's appeal.......
Jim Higginbotham Posted - May 21 2019 : 08:18:41 AM
I don't find lasers totally useless - I keep one on a .22 Ruger pistol and .22 rifle for shooting racoons at night but I haven't had to use them in some time since we lost our last chicken to them.

I agree with Chris, if there is much use for them on a self defense gun it is in the dark - I really don't like flashlights for fighting they are "bullet magnets".

Then again so are lasers unless you shoot very fast and very effectively - one agency I trained showed up with 50% lasers on their guns. After they watched their filmed runs through the shoot house there were only a couple on the second training.

Jim H.
heavyweight Posted - May 20 2019 : 6:10:08 PM
Being "old school", I'm not a big fan of lasers. A couple years ago I acquired a Ruger LCP with an integral laser. I used it in low light and, to my surprise, it was very functional. They do have their place in the self defense realm.
ASCTLC Posted - May 18 2019 : 08:34:57 AM
Promoting target panic is what happens to me Ace. I know better but can't get past it so I don't use em. It also happens to me with higher power scopes (I do best with a 1.5x5 scope typically set in the lower half of the range on my elk rifle).
Ace Posted - May 17 2019 : 4:03:14 PM
TOM story on 'exaggerates any movement': When I worked at the archery/bait/tackle shop, we had shooters come use the range who were of a skill level that they used the golf tees we pinned the targets with as aiming points; some of them we had to ask them to bring replacement tees because they tended to destroy ours. For a short time, laser sights on bows became popular with the 'gadgeteers'. A couple of them got severe cases of target panic because of that exaggerated movement issue. At 20 yards or so, no problem, but when they moved back to 30-40 yards, the little red dot looked like a flashlight stuck to a paint mixer. These guys understood that you can't hold a sight pin perfectly still, and did fine with letting the pins 'float'; but when the dot showed just how much it really moved, their confidence was shattered. I got them to take the lasers off, and had to counsel and encourage them for days to get them back to their original skill level. Last I knew, those particular two guys were using their fancy laser sights to torment their cats and dogs--kind of an expensive toy for a pet, by my way of thinking.

I think Arv is right, they ain't for X-shooting, but in proper circumstances, they can be helpful for getting hits. Ace
retfed89 Posted - May 17 2019 : 2:33:31 PM
My newS&W M&P Bodyguard came with a CT laser on the frame. It has better iron sights than my model 49, wider front and rear. During first time leosa quals with the new gun was doing finew/o laser. Used the laser on the 25 yard phase. Big mistake, should hav stayed with irons. I have aligned the laser with the Ironsights as good as I can. Chrisís night scenario is a possibility. For now use the irons they are right on. The laser exaggerates any movement of the gun, to no advantage, a distraction. Retfed
Arvinator Posted - May 17 2019 : 12:49:18 PM
My 38 snubbie Model 60 I carry as backup has a set of C/T laser grips. So does the Model 642 that rides in my pocket. I check it often, and practice with the laser AND sights. I think from the pocket or holster and a quick index or point with a laser could be handy. Not shooting for X's but hits. Multiple hits.
Chris Christian Posted - May 17 2019 : 12:46:54 PM
Laser sights are a tool. They have their place. In the wrong place it's like using a screwdriver when you need a hacksaw.

Unfortunately, today, too many people think "technology" is the automatic answer. They forget that "technology" is just a tool... and tools require some training in their effective use. Many new shooters fail to realize that.

I won't give up my CT grips on my nightstand gun... proper tool for anticipated use (and for unanticipated use I still have the iron sights) but I'm not going to stick them on my EDC guns.
gw Posted - May 17 2019 : 11:42:59 AM
using a laser requires training

at the local gun pub yesterday, little guns with lasers were selling like hotcakes

doubt if many will train with it

if you are really dialed in, what is your response if you bring the gun up and the laser has failed. how much time do you waste looking for the dot that won't appear...

handy to have if you're wearing night vision or a protective mask

but even then you need to function check the laser before going forward
Ace Posted - May 17 2019 : 11:17:40 AM
Not a fan of lasers on pistols, generally. Virtually all of my CCH students over the years who have had lasers on their guns were, at best, slower in their shooting--busy looking for the dot rather than the sights. A huge percentage of them, when they brought the gun up to firing position but still had their finger indexed on the frame (those with Crimson Trace lasers) would cover the light, and get confused as to why the little dot wasn't on the target. Instead of getting the sights lined up and shooting, they'd always start looking for the reason their little electronic 'magic sight' wasn't working. When we'd get back to the classroom and spend a little critique time, we'd discuss the problem, with a strong suggestion that if they insist on using the laser, they train and practice extensively with it. Profiling the types who wanted lasers, I'd guess most of them haven't practiced much.
I can see times it could be useful, but usable--without the serious practice--not so much.

All that said, I do like the actual grip shape and feel of some of the Crimson Trace models, on revawvers, and would be happy to have that part on some of mine; but they don't sell them without the little light, so guess I'll just make do with what I've been using for the last several decades. Ace
Chris Christian Posted - May 17 2019 : 10:15:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

I don't know if I've related this but for the last 7 years or so I've had a set of CT laser grips in my 640 "hide out" gun. I had already satisfied myself that they were pretty much a waste of time, generally speaking - for me, others may not find it so and that is certainly believable - we all have to work out our own salvation.

Last week I decided to run an agency qualification with it since the qual is shot mostly at 7 yards (that is a state mandate) but we added time limits (not too strenuous since qualification is not training - well it is if it is all you get but this agency has an ambitious training program). I wanted to demonstrate that you could easily pass the service handgun qual with a snubby.

The good news is it did work. The bad news is I was pretty close to the pretty generous time limits (not a big shock as I had done some testing with the son on Pepper Poppers at 10 yards and using the sights was twice as fast - from the low ready - as the laser).

So, as a comparison, I shot the qual with my old M-36, and the times were not only much better but the score was better as well and the group more centered.

Full power .38's (if there is such a thing) were used in both cases.

The M-36 is the old style skinny front sight but it has an orange insert.

Part of this I would attribute to the grip itself not the laser - I have the little CT grip, the bigger one would likely do better. ON my M-36 I have Pachmyer Professional open back which is about the same size as the CT but it is a good bit more Grippy.

This ended my long experiment, I ditched the CT grip and went to a covered backstrap thin grip and repainted the front sight.

I would be remiss if I did not say "mileage varies" - you have to test it for yourself, you might be the opposite.

Jim H.



I have a set of full sized CT grips on a 4 inch GP-100 that is my nightstand gun. If I ever need to use it the chances are 99% that it will be quickly, at night, indoors, with little or no lights on. That laser (big 203 battery) throws enough light on it's own, combined with spillover from the white interior walls, to "see" an individual in a zero light situation. It's perfect for that application.

But, I do have to agree with Jim that when there is enough ambient light to see the target/iron sights the laser would be of little value. I would default to the iron sight techniques I've been using for over 50 years. That would be faster. For that reason I see no need to put a laser on any of my EDC guns. It's not something we normally practice/train with.... and under stress we will default to training.

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