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 Does an AR Pistol make any sense for Self Defense

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Dr.G Posted - November 14 2017 : 12:33:35 AM
As hard as it is to admit, I think I've finally reached a stage in life where I have all of the guns that I need. The only one I really want (AK-107), is currently unavailable for import into CONUS.
I've toyed with the idea of building an AR pistol as a close quarter Personal Defense Weapon for the house. Just interested in people's opinions of the AR pistol as a practical close quarter (75 yds or closer) self defense weapon. This will have a 10 in. barrel, Red Dot, Mag Pul Angled Forward Pistol grip, flashlight, folding pistol brace, & single point sling. Fun toy, practical PDW or both?

25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
gw Posted - June 11 2019 : 07:51:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

I guess the two big questions are whether the politicians could pass such a measure, and then whether the Supreme Court would call it Constitutional.

Declaring millions of firearms illegal would seem to represent a taking of citizens’ property without compensation, contra the 5th Amendment. But I guess the Court could figure out a way around that if they wanted to.





I think that might already have been considered

The United States Supreme Court, in 1968, decided the case of Haynes v. United States in favor of the defendant, which effectively gutted the National Act of 1934. As one could possess an NFA firearm and choose not to register it, and not face prosecution due to Fifth Amendment protections, the Act was unenforceable. To deal with this, Congress rewrote the Act to make registration of existing weapons impossible except by the government (previously, an existing firearm could be registered by any citizen).

once "assaut weapons" are moved to the list they can be confiscated as illigally possed.

Feinsteins bill is geared towards the structure of the NFA as well

note that handguns are included

not hard to figure why Ruger mini14s are exempted from the assault rifle ban

the bills co-sponsor is Richard Blumenthal, Senator for Connecticut

Ruger corporate hq is in Connecticut........

maybe it's not about saving lives after alll
jle3030 Posted - June 11 2019 : 07:25:17 AM
It looks as if mandatory self reporting of "grandfathered" firearms would be very close to self incrimination under the 5th Amendment. Not at the time of registration, perhaps, but if subsequent confiscation laws made you a criminal.

Also, later criminalizing something that was done in good faith at an earlier date strikes me as an ex post facto law.

I think the Dems are going to have to further corrupt the Supreme Court before these laws will fly.

Meanwhile, Kalifornia has already committed enough infringement to keep the Courts occupied for the next few years. And more cases are brewing nationwide.

Regarding Little Bill's observation on certain Ruger rifles being excused from the ban, is that company doing some fast and loose lobbying behind the scenes? Bill Ruger's opposition to higher capacity magazines was well known back in the '90s

Jeff

LittleBill Posted - June 11 2019 : 04:59:22 AM
I guess the two big questions are whether the politicians could pass such a measure, and then whether the Supreme Court would call it Constitutional.

Declaring millions of firearms illegal would seem to represent a taking of citizens’ property without compensation, contra the 5th Amendment. But I guess the Court could figure out a way around that if they wanted to.

gw Posted - June 11 2019 : 02:41:12 AM
there have also been numerous bills sent to committee that would simply identify any semi automatic firearm that accepts a detachable magazine, be considered an item regulated by the NFA.

unclear if existing firearms could then be registered or would become illegal to possess
LittleBill Posted - June 10 2019 : 9:02:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gw

Feinstein's latest gun grab, Assault Weapon Ban 2019 (the redux)

goes straight at AR pistols, to include braces

it may allow grandfathering of the pistol itself, but suggests the brace will not be allowed

it also may end up requiring existing weapons to be registered

my guess is, registration will follow with confiscation at a later date

reading the mess makes me sick....


So we get a peek at what their first step towards confiscation is gonna look like....

It bans the manufacture and importation of prohibited classes of weapons, while stipulating that guns owned before the ban will be grandfathered-in. 205 guns are mentioned specifically by name, as being covered by the ban; including almost all our favorites. Interestingly, the Ruger Mini-14, Mini-30, PC9, and PC40 are specifically exempted from the ban!

But yeah: it doesn’t say anything about whether add-on braces and folding stocks are included in the grandfathering; or whether they’ll be treated like bump-stocks, and become illegal to possess. (No need to wonder what they’d like the answer to that to be....)

It would also ban mags over 10 rounds; with ones you already own grandfathered-in. But you won’t be allowed to transfer them! You wouldn’t be able to sell them, or give them away, even to family.

It bans semi-auto shotguns holding over 5 rounds.

It also bans owning “any combination of parts” from which a prohibited firearm can be assembled. It’s not clear whether that would include folding stocks and braces.

The bill requires a background check (and presumably transfer through an FFL) on any future “sale, trade or gifting” of a weapon covered by the bill.

It also requires that banned weapons be stored using a secure gun storage or safety device like a trigger lock, any time a firearm is not in the direct control of the possessor or in the immediate vicinity. In other words, if it’s not in arms’ reach, it has to be locked or in a safe.

I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t know how, or whether, the 5th Amendment prohibition against the Gov’t taking your property without due recompense, would apply to a law that makes it illegal to sell your mags. But I guess the Courts could interpret it any way they please... if they can “find” a right to gay marriage and abortion in the Constitution, they can find anything....



Evan Posted - June 10 2019 : 7:19:34 PM
Should have added that at 50 yards I find no discernible difference between the groups fired from my DSA carbine and my PSA pistol. Both have Primary Arms red dots which are relatively inexpensive but have proven to be Evan Proof. I resisted electronic sights but had to surrender when I could no longer see the front sight in focus.
gw Posted - June 08 2019 : 5:29:57 PM
Feinstein's latest gun grab, Assault Weapon Ban 2019 (the redux)

goes straight at AR pistols, to include braces

it may allow grandfathering of the pistol itself, but suggests the brace will not be allowed

it also may end up requiring existing weapons to be registered

my guess is, registration will follow with confiscation at a later date

reading the mess makes me sick....
Evan Posted - May 05 2019 : 4:06:32 PM
At 76, the only place I go on a regular basis where a large group of people are present, including a large number of children, is church and I worry a lot.Pistols first? Of course and I'll go to my s&W M&P .40 loaded with HST. If its on the other side of the bldg I will throw the pistol together. I bought a top block from Rainier and it holds the bolt and cocking lever in place . More than once I found them out of the upper laying there with bolt beside it.

If I have to deploy it my approach will be, "hands, weapon, death"
LittleBill Posted - May 04 2019 : 6:48:23 PM
Yep!
jle3030 Posted - May 04 2019 : 3:07:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by LittleBill

quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

I think it's just a matter of time until the 'rule beater' guns - i.e. AR pistols and Shockwave 'other guns' - go the way of the bump stock. The wrist brace would be the first to go.

True.

But the same rationale could also be applied to all magazine-fed semi-auto rifles— the so-called ‘assault rifles’— they’re likely to be the first to be banned if anti-gunners get enough power.

Does that mean we give up the fight and stop buying/carrying them? I don’t think so. We just need to keep in mind the unfortunate truth that at some point— like short shotguns or AR pistols with wrist braces— they may become contraband. If you can’t deal with that, then yes: best to stick to other types of weapons.







quote:
Until then - and I'm speaking just for myself here - I'm applying the 'Don't go anywhere armed that you wouldn't go unarmed' rule.

The problem with that logic is that sometimes you just can’t control this stuff.

The classic example is that of someone driving through a strange city who takes a wrong turn, and finds himself in a bad neighborhood: a neighborhood he’d never willingly choose to enter. But there he is.

So you protect yourself from all possible circumstances, even those you consider unlikely to happen; realizing that even the most careful person can’t always control their circumstances.





quote:

In other words, don't go anywhere with an AR
pistol where you wouldn't take a rifle. Can I imagine a situation where I would be lugging a shoulder bag around weighed down with a mini AR? Sure. Maybe. Ummm … probably not.

I would have to see a violent societal shift before I would bother to pack that sort of gear, even occasionally.

But when/if those violent societal shifts do start to take place; will you still be able to obtain that gear?

Or at that point, due to a variety of possible causes— laws that restrict gun purchases, shortages due to demand that way outstrips available supply— would you be unable to get the gear you’d like to have?

So it would seem to make sense to start to prepare now; by at least having the gear you’d want to have if those changes did happen.






quote:
Fortunately we're not there yet.

As a society we’re not.

But on an individual level, it’s still possible to find yourself in a situation where the normal rules of society have broken down.

Remember Reginald Denny in the aftermath of the LA riots? It’s not hard to imagine how different his situation might have been, if he’d been armed with a serious weapon.






quote:
Civilian SD situations are generally fast, close, and unexpected. I would not expect to have time to unlimber my little concealed AR blaster, even if I were carrying one.

True again. But as Jim H. and others are fond of pointing out, sometimes the generalities don’t apply: sometimes you find yourself in a statistically-anomalous situation.

While it may be unlikely that I’ll find myself in a SD situation where I have time to pull out my braced AR pistol, it could happen; so why not have it with me just in case?





quote:

YMMV of course, and there are always the undeniable cool and fun factors. Not to mention the 'Just because I can' personal freedom aspect.

Jeff


I’m not down with the ‘just because I can’ rationale, which misguided folks use to justify open carry.

What does make sense to me, is the ‘Just in case I might happen to need it’ factor.

And yes, as always: YMMV....

Excellent counterpoints. I don't see a right or wrong answer to this question. It mostly comes down to personal preference and how we work out our own salvation.

Jeff
RLS Posted - May 04 2019 : 2:48:44 PM
When my wife and I had to travel to Ohio to clean out my late mother-in-law's house I took a PLR16 in a backpack. Easy to get through the lobby of the hotel. And it didn't take up much room in the trunk of the car.

Rick
LittleBill Posted - May 04 2019 : 11:01:33 AM
It’s certainly prudent to stay within the law when you find it necessary to travel through gun-hating States.

But for those of us living in (relatively) ‘free’ States: when we limit our own personal arsenal to guns which are least likely to be banned; aren’t we (by doing that) giving up the battle before the ultimate outcome is clear?

And yes, we may end up paying for lawyers... but when has freedom not come at a cost?

Rexster Posted - May 04 2019 : 10:50:26 AM
It is quite true that an AR-based pistol is going to be illegal in some places, and may become illegal in more places. The only 49-state-legal pistol may be revolving pistols, and (perhaps) autos with with up to ten-round mags. (Hawaii, the 50th state, is, reportedly, problematic, for all handguns.) We must do our homework before traveling.

When I went on a hastily-organized drive from Texas to the NE USA, last year, I simply carried a GP100, and another revolver, exact model not remembered at this moment. I brought some solid-point ammo, in case I might have to detour through part of NJ. (I was qual’ed with both auto and revolver, for LEOSA, so a 1911 would have worked as well, but I think my second handgun was a second revolver.) I certainly did not feel handicapped, with two revolvers, but, when and where practicable/legal, an additional force multiplier is an additional force multiplier.
zeke Posted - May 04 2019 : 08:49:21 AM
Stayed away from pistols with braces for several years, mainly because a lawyers "interpretation" can/does change. Now several years have gone by and feel the likely hood of outright banning these has diminished. Course the possibility of a ban will always exist, but harder to do with increasing numbers.

As others wisely implied/noted, while they are technically handguns, you could still be paying for lawyers. Did finally buy one as this state allows loaded/concealed pistols in vehicles. If they do get banned, will put laser on it. 25 rounds of 45 acp is appealing.
LittleBill Posted - May 03 2019 : 1:32:26 PM
And yeah: in the event of widespread social breakdown, it’s hard to imagine better barter items than guns and ammo.

LittleBill Posted - May 03 2019 : 1:28:31 PM
Yeah, my primary defense is always a pistol (or two) concealed on my person: a SIG P938, P229, or P226, depending on what dress requirements allow me to conceal. And sometimes a .38 or .357 snubbie.

My ‘AR pistol’ is a SIG Virtus in .300BLK with a folding brace and Aimpoint H2 red dot, carried folded-up in a yuppie-looking messenger bag in my car; in the event that I need it, and have time to get to it. Just as easy to hit with as a fullsize AR at all but the longest distances, and easier to maneuver in tight spaces.

While I guess I could tote it around with me if the situation called for it, so far I’ve never felt the need to do so; but it’s not hard to imagine a situation where I’d feel better having more than just a pistol with me, but wouldn’t want to advertise that fact.

All my defensive long guns, including the Virtus, have flashlights attached.

Chris Christian Posted - May 03 2019 : 11:32:32 AM
I can't disagree with what has been said, on both sides of the issue.
But, seeking "My Own Salvation" I cannot imagine myself carrying one of those on my person in public.... regardless of how it is carried.

My first response to a SD situation is going to be the fastest -- the high cap 9mm I carry concealed, or my weak side pocket snubby. For me, the AR pistol would be a 'car gun' second option. And, in that case I would favor one of my full-sized ARs. They are easier to shoot quickly & accurately.

For the house, I could see a .300 Blackout AR laying around... although if you have to open doors, push things out of the way, shine some light, or peek around offside corners, I'm not so certain that it would be a better bet than a high-cap pistol with a Crimson Trace sight.

On the other hand, why not have it? Even if you never use it it could be a great "barter item" in the event of a total societal breakdown.

Just MHO
LittleBill Posted - May 03 2019 : 10:59:26 AM
It strikes me too, that a lot of this depends on what the specific details of future bans of certain types of firearms will be:

Will a future ‘assault rifle’ ban be like the ban under Bush1: banning future importation, but not sales or possession of existing guns?

Or will they be like the recent New Zealand ban: where your ‘assault rifles’ become contraband, which are no longer legal to own, and which the law requires you to surrender to authorities, or face drastic legal consequences?

Or will future bans be some combination of the above: say, a situation where existing ownership of ‘assault rifles’ is grandfathered-in— where you get to keep the ones you own— but where sales of new ones are prohibited? Or where you’re allowed to keep them in your home, but not transport them outside your home?

LittleBill Posted - May 03 2019 : 10:44:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

I think it's just a matter of time until the 'rule beater' guns - i.e. AR pistols and Shockwave 'other guns' - go the way of the bump stock. The wrist brace would be the first to go.

True.

But the same rationale could also be applied to all magazine-fed semi-auto rifles— the so-called ‘assault rifles’— they’re likely to be the first to be banned if anti-gunners get enough power.

Does that mean we give up the fight and stop buying/carrying them? I don’t think so. We just need to keep in mind the unfortunate truth that at some point— like short shotguns or AR pistols with wrist braces— they may become contraband. If you can’t deal with that, then yes: best to stick to other types of weapons.







quote:
Until then - and I'm speaking just for myself here - I'm applying the 'Don't go anywhere armed that you wouldn't go unarmed' rule.

The problem with that logic is that sometimes you just can’t control this stuff.

The classic example is that of someone driving through a strange city who takes a wrong turn, and finds himself in a bad neighborhood: a neighborhood he’d never willingly choose to enter. But there he is.

So you protect yourself from all possible circumstances, even those you consider unlikely to happen; realizing that even the most careful person can’t always control their circumstances.





quote:

In other words, don't go anywhere with an AR
pistol where you wouldn't take a rifle. Can I imagine a situation where I would be lugging a shoulder bag around weighed down with a mini AR? Sure. Maybe. Ummm … probably not.

I would have to see a violent societal shift before I would bother to pack that sort of gear, even occasionally.

But when/if those violent societal shifts do start to take place; will you still be able to obtain that gear?

Or at that point, due to a variety of possible causes— laws that restrict gun purchases, shortages due to demand that way outstrips available supply— would you be unable to get the gear you’d like to have?

So it would seem to make sense to start to prepare now; by at least having the gear you’d want to have if those changes did happen.






quote:
Fortunately we're not there yet.

As a society we’re not.

But on an individual level, it’s still possible to find yourself in a situation where the normal rules of society have broken down.

Remember Reginald Denny in the aftermath of the LA riots? It’s not hard to imagine how different his situation might have been, if he’d been armed with a serious weapon.






quote:
Civilian SD situations are generally fast, close, and unexpected. I would not expect to have time to unlimber my little concealed AR blaster, even if I were carrying one.

True again. But as Jim H. and others are fond of pointing out, sometimes the generalities don’t apply: sometimes you find yourself in a statistically-anomalous situation.

While it may be unlikely that I’ll find myself in a SD situation where I have time to pull out my braced AR pistol, it could happen; so why not have it with me just in case?





quote:

YMMV of course, and there are always the undeniable cool and fun factors. Not to mention the 'Just because I can' personal freedom aspect.

Jeff


I’m not down with the ‘just because I can’ rationale, which misguided folks use to justify open carry.

What does make sense to me, is the ‘Just in case I might happen to need it’ factor.

And yes, as always: YMMV....


jle3030 Posted - May 03 2019 : 04:31:06 AM
I think it's just a matter of time until the 'rule beater' guns - i.e. AR pistols and Shockwave 'other guns' - go the way of the bump stock. The wrist brace would be the first to go.

Until then - and I'm speaking just for myself here - I'm applying the 'Don't go anywhere armed that you wouldn't go unarmed' rule. In other words, don't go anywhere with an AR
pistol where you wouldn't take a rifle. Can I imagine a situation where I would be lugging a shoulder bag around weighed down with a mini AR? Sure. Maybe. Ummm … probably not.

I would have to see a violent societal shift before I would bother to pack that sort of gear, even occasionally. Fortunately we're not there yet. Civilian SD situations are generally fast, close, and unexpected. I would not expect to have time to unlimber my little concealed AR blaster, even if I were carrying one.

YMMV of course, and there are always the undeniable cool and fun factors. Not to mention the 'Just because I can' personal freedom aspect.

Jeff

esq_stu Posted - May 02 2019 : 9:37:02 PM
I do think it makes sense. I would want something with minimal flash, either in 300 blackout or a pistol caliber - 5.56 has too much flash in a short barrel. I built an 8 inch one in 9mm for Glock mags and a 10.3 inch one in 300 blackout. I will ultimately get the tax stamp for each.
gw Posted - May 02 2019 : 11:25:07 AM
we should be aware that some states are or have produced legislatition that make AR pistols and the like illegall

Illinois for example is proposing legislation that would ban "handguns" that accept detachable magazines forward of the grip.

or some nonsense to that affect

braces are similarly being targeted

so when traveling out of state you may enter jurisdictions where an AR pistol is not covered by a handgun permit
Rexster Posted - May 02 2019 : 11:02:16 AM
I recently added a Daniel Defense AR pistol, with “brace” and LAW folder, 300 BLK. As has already been discussed, it is a rule booker, falling under the laws/rules for handguns, rather than rifles. I recently retired from LEO-ing, and my wife retired from the M.E.’s office in 2015. We anticipate interstate travel, by motor vehicle, in the near future. She has a Texas LTC, and I have LEOSA, neither of which confer any privileges with rifles. An AR pistol is a pistol. A loaded pistol may be better, in a decisive moment, than an unloaded long gun.

AR pistols accept a nice range of optical sights. Conventional handguns can be equipped with optics, but are more limited in that regard.

Portability, with discretion, is a factor. Much as I love my Benelli M2 shotguns, one of which was my duty shotgun, a long case/container is required, when transporting them.

If the day comes, when I must remove the “brace,” well, I will roll my eyes, shrug, and remove the “brace.”

Finally, an AR pistol is fun. Nothing wrong with fun, especially as my formerly-“strong”-side thumb, hand, wrist, and shoulder are not what they once were. I am cross-dominant, so my strong side with an AR, whether rifle or pistol, is using my healthier hand, arm, and shoulder. The Lord blessed me with two upper limbs. So, not only fun, but orthopedic, brace or no brace.
garrettwc Posted - August 29 2018 : 7:26:17 PM
Luckily for me I live in a college/tourist town. An everyday backpack with some cheap headphones hanging on it and a few patches from a surf shop doesn't draw a second look from anyone.
LittleBill Posted - August 28 2018 : 12:54:19 PM
That’s good to hear. So far ‘yuppie messenger bags’ like those from Timbuk2 have been the closest I’ve seen to a ‘non-tactical’ looking carry system.


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