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 Autoloader gunfight failures?

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jle3030 Posted - August 12 2017 : 11:42:58 AM
I keep seeing references to all sorts of different autoloaders failing in actual gunfights. Is there any reliable data on this?

Gun was unreliable in the first place?
Poor grip under stress?
Limp wristing?
One handing the gun when the shooter practices with both hands?
Trigger reset failure?
Other?

I'm betting the human element is the weak link here and this is a training issue. Is the same problem cropping up in timed competition or Force on Force exercises?

Jeff


25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
heavyweight Posted - December 04 2017 : 09:39:36 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

I'm also not Evan, but I do want to thank him for acquainting me with Mobil One synthetic oil. The version I use is V Twin 20w50w. According to Mobil it was designed for air-cooled motorcycle engines.

A semi-auto firearm, handgun or rifle, is nothing more than an air cooled reciprocating engine.

It's thick enough to stay where you put it, and a quart bottle is likely a lifetime supply.... you don't need much to get things done. I dole some out into a small oilier bottle and that lasts for months... even shooting 3 or 4 matches a month.

I don't use it for delicate work, like lubing trigger groups, but it works fine for everything else.






20w50 is what I use on my V-Twin.
Chris Christian Posted - December 03 2017 : 4:09:31 PM
I'm also not Evan, but I do want to thank him for acquainting me with Mobil One synthetic oil. The version I use is V Twin 20w50w. According to Mobil it was designed for air-cooled motorcycle engines.

A semi-auto firearm, handgun or rifle, is nothing more than an air cooled reciprocating engine.

It's thick enough to stay where you put it, and a quart bottle is likely a lifetime supply.... you don't need much to get things done. I dole some out into a small oilier bottle and that lasts for months... even shooting 3 or 4 matches a month.

I don't use it for delicate work, like lubing trigger groups, but it works fine for everything else.

Ace Posted - December 03 2017 : 1:54:54 PM
I'm not Evan, but I did learn the 'Mobil 1' trick from him. When I need more, I get that special weight; it's called 'On Sale'. Ace
revjen45 Posted - December 03 2017 : 12:51:11 PM
1) Was the green crud corrosion or mold?

2) Evan, what weight Mobil 1 do you run in your guns?
heavyweight Posted - November 29 2017 : 12:48:38 PM
Coincidentally I recently changed my off duty firearm from LC9S to LCR .38 loaded with Buffalo Bore. Why? For a couple of the very reasons listed here. Switched out the grip to something smaller for concealability. Of course it is backed up by LCP II. Reloads for both.
ASCTLC Posted - November 29 2017 : 09:16:16 AM
And here I thought those pictures were all staged fakes.
Jim Higginbotham Posted - November 29 2017 : 07:37:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Got a wallpaper picture in my file of a cop from some big NE city, holding her AR15/M16 ready to shoot up a building or somebody in it---with the magazine in backwards. Ace



I used to use that picture in a power point - she is actually covering a suspect - or at least thinks she was.

I am not sure it was NYC but it was up in the Northeast.

Jim
Ace Posted - November 28 2017 : 5:58:55 PM
Got a wallpaper picture in my file of a cop from some big NE city, holding her AR15/M16 ready to shoot up a building or somebody in it---with the magazine in backwards. Ace
exfed2002 Posted - November 28 2017 : 1:43:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Evan

I remember a picture of a federal swat guy shortly after 9/11 on the cover of Newsweek with his Aimpoint on backwards!



We still laugh about the guy who put his vest on over his firearm so he couldn't get to it........
Evan Posted - November 28 2017 : 1:33:43 PM
I remember a picture of a federal swat guy shortly after 9/11 on the cover of Newsweek with his Aimpoint on backwards!
exfed2002 Posted - November 28 2017 : 12:37:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gw



he told me to take my pick and he'd cut me deal when we were down cleaning the filthy things.



It's not just guns!

My old Italian tailor used to complain to me all the time about customers who would bring dirty clothes to him for alterations because they figured they would clean them afterwards..........
WR Moore Posted - November 28 2017 : 11:36:21 AM
About the 1911 grip safety, I believe the major reason for the grip safety was that bucketing about on horse back can create major difficulties in staying on the horse, much less keeping your weaponry. The original run of 1911s had not only a lanyard loop on the pistol, but on the magazines (late buddy was a 1911 collector). So, if your intrepid cavalry trooper dropped anything, it stayed attached during the festivities. I expect the concept of a loaded, cocked and off safe side arm banging about against rider, mount and anything else in reach gave most everyone pause. Thus the grip safety.

I do have to wonder how long it might take to get untangled should the trooper expend all his ammo and then drop the sidearm.

About maintenance....I used to occasionally help our armorers due the semi-annual sidearm cleaning. I recall one case where I discovered the bore of the weapon was covered in green growth.That one became an object lesson complete with power point and photos. The guilty party had to clean that one all by her lonesome while a whole bunch of folks looked on. There were private CTJ meeting with a few others.
Chris Christian Posted - September 19 2017 : 12:30:44 PM
I field strip, clean, and lube everyone one of my carry guns (even the .38 snub) after every firing -- regardless of how many rounds have been fired. Old military training reinforced by current competition experience.





gw Posted - September 19 2017 : 11:45:24 AM
years ago I helped a friend clean and check a few dozen gen 3 S&W 9mms he had come up for his small shop.

they were a bunch of police trade ins he bought from a distributor

he told me to take my pick and he'd cut me deal when we were down cleaning the filthy things.

most had major damage broken sights, dinged slides, a couple of cracked slides, broken springs and parts. several were totally inop, few worked reliably during test firing. bunch of crap magazines also.

I don't know if these were still being issued to cops when they were traded in, but most were just a few years old.

I helped him out, but passed on buying any of the junk guns.
revjen45 Posted - September 19 2017 : 10:14:22 AM
After reading this I stripped and serviced my carry piece.
Jim Higginbotham Posted - September 18 2017 : 10:25:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Evan

In spite of what Jim H may tell you Lincoln did not speak at my academy graduation, but it was a long time ago. I was so appalled at the maintenance of dept weapons I quickly acquired an on duty revolver, an off duty revolver and my own personal shotgun.

Snippage



You know I read this but I must have been asleep at the switch (not an uncommon occurance).

Of course Lincoln did not speak at your academy graduation - he was off fighting the Blackhawk War

Jim
fsilber Posted - September 15 2017 : 7:09:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Two for the Just For Fun column:

In my wallpaper file, I have a newspaper photo of an officer responding to something serious enough she thought she needed to unhorse her AR15 to be ready. Look close, you see the magazine is in backwards....

You sure it was an AR15 and not an H&K? :-)
gw Posted - September 13 2017 : 8:29:27 PM
the Colt 1907 ACP military trials gun, luger, and Savage 1905 submitted for trials testing also had grip safeties, I believe the Luger was the only one of the 3 that also had a manual thumb safety.

might be where Ordanance came up with the concept
gw Posted - September 13 2017 : 8:08:12 PM
if you ever look at a 1909 Colt, I think there were maybe 23 made, you'll see a prototype 1911 made for testing.

it was designed by Browning with a grip safety only, no thumb safety. the manual thumb safety was added by the Ordinance Department.

the original manual of arms for cavelry troopers was to carry the automatic with an empty chamber, on the command of "lock and load one round" the slide was manipulated to chamber one round. at that point the manual safety was applied so that the handgun could be safely handled one handed while the trooper attempted to control a horse with the other.

the handgun had a lanyard that was attached to the trooper, if he lost control of his mount and needed two hands to control his horse, the handgun if droppd could be suspended by the lanyard, the grip safety would "safe" the handgun while it remained suspended.

I saw an example at the Browning museum on the Rock Island Arsenal recently.

years ago on Ft Bragg, I saw operators with the grip safety taped down, now highly discouraged.

leave the grip safety alone and adjust it correctly, it was designd that way.
Jim Higginbotham Posted - September 13 2017 : 4:44:08 PM
I used to not like them but I came to live with them but I'm all for each person making up his own mind.

Tape is cheap

Or the classy Texas Ranger thing is a strip of rawhide I think

I do make sure mine disengage with the slightest pressure. I surely have seen them cause some grief for the occasional shooter.

Jim H.

PS, yep the Cavalry are the ones to blame for the grip safety - they wanted the pistol to be able to be fired "without manipulation" and to be made safe automatically if it was dropped. I never did understand that first part - pulling the trigger is manipulation
Chris Christian Posted - September 04 2017 : 1:39:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by lashlaruhe

IMO, Mr. Christian gave one of the best reasons to dump the Kimber Swartz firing pion block "poor grip under stress" there are other reasons (arthritis. gun being grabbed by BG, sore hand, etc.) that will cause the Swartz to fail as it is entirely dependent on a firm, tight grip on the grip safety



Thank you for the nice words. Grip safeties are another thing that grates on me and I won't own a gun that has one.

The reason the grip safety was included on Browning's original 1911 design is because our military still used horse-mounted cavalry. The cavalry INSISTED upon it so that a trooper on a galloping horse who was not able to properly work the small thumb safety would stand some chance of holstering his cocked gun without putting a hole in his leg, or his horse.

The grip safety is a a historical footnote (if I could spell 'achronnism' I would use that word) that plagues us to this day. There is no need for one on a modern handgun design. Browning realized that when he deleted it from his 1935 Hi-Power (P35) design.

Yet... 80 years later... we're still stuck with this useless add-on that nobody needs.
Evan Posted - September 04 2017 : 1:19:27 PM
Only you can put a price tag on yourself. Me, I'm very very expensive!
lashlaruhe Posted - September 03 2017 : 1:01:06 PM
IMO, Mr. Christian gave one of the best reasons to dump the Kimber Swartz firing pion block "poor grip under stress" there are other reasons (arthritis. gun being grabbed by BG, sore hand, etc.) that will cause the Swartz to fail as it is entirely dependent on a firm, tight grip on the grip safety
Jim Higginbotham Posted - September 03 2017 : 10:41:42 AM
Long experience with shooting (mostly on the range) tells me that a quality auto-loader is *very* reliable if they are fairly well maintained (and don't take that as being anal about it - I clean my practice gun about every 6 months whether it needs it or not - then again, I'm not carrying it for self defense but I have not had a stoppage in at least the last 30,000 rounds or so). I do see some problems on the range in students however.

Long experience with Cops tells me Evan is right (big shock); cops often do not maintain their weapons.

But I believe there is something else going on as well. The first clue I had was once I was looking for instances caught on camera in which multiple torso hits failed to stop a threat. The first 9 videos I watched though sort of distracted me from that goal since in the 9 videos, 4 officers had a weapon stoppage on the very first round fired! Now that is not a study but it comes to 45% of those 9!

2 of the officers were able to take cover and clear their stoppage. 2 were not but they did survive the encounter by going to hands (one tried pepper spray to no avail).

Now of course the real overall failure rate is not even close to 45%. That is likely coincidence, but I am hearing the term "First Round Stoppage" show up in training more and more.

Experience in the live fire shoot-house has reinforced this. Of approximately 50 classes (of 8-12 officers in each) for one agency I counted over the years and we had exactly 3 classes in which there was *not* a stoppage in the house - there are not more than 100 to 200 rounds fired in each class *total* (more on the square range during that training and stoppages were more rare there).

The difference I *think* is that the firing positions in the shoot-house are not as stable - often leaning out around cover/concealment, often on the move and, since we often use realistic reactive targets the shooter happens on, often while pulling back when he finds himself too close.

IOW - as sort of unstable shooting platform.

On the square range, I also see problems with light people (women and kids) or folks with sedentary life-styles (read that as limited grip strength) having stoppages with auto-loaders, especially *light* and compact auto-loaders.

My only advice is when you consider a weapon for carry take it to the range and fire it with both strong and support hand only, fire it with a wrist that is not locked, fire it upside down (not necessarily holding the grip upside down, just turn your hand over). Make sure it works in at odd attitudes and with unconventional grip.

Just Ramblin'

Jim H.
LittleBill Posted - August 13 2017 : 5:50:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Two for the Just For Fun column:

In my wallpaper file, I have a newspaper photo of an officer responding to something serious enough she thought she needed to unhorse her AR15 to be ready. Look close, you see the magazine is in backwards....

Also,the other site I hang out on, there are 'experts' (or 'expurts', as Arv says) who state categorically that there is no need to carry spare ammo or a BUG, because in the 'typical' (?) civilian self-defense scenario there will be no need to reload, or time to do so if needed; nor if your primary goes bosom-to-the-wind, there will be no time to access and deploy a BUG. Clearing a malfunction? The skill is not needed because you will have no time to do it before the bad guy will getcha. Anything with a manual safety of any kind is just your suicide waiting to happen, because in a social situation, you will boggle the safety or forget it's there.
One of these geniuses is a lawyer, if that means anything. Lubrication? If you carry a MSFP, lube is pretty much wasted effort. If you don't carry a MSFP, you're toast regardless, because nothing that worked BITD works 'efficiently' today.

I'm glad I have a safe space (here) to crawl into. Ace


He should love Russian roulette then: the odds are 5-to-1 in his favor....


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