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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Ten Driver Posted - August 27 2017 : 02:30:46 AM
Hello Folks,

My friend and I have been working on a blog dedicated to revolvers, and we've got a few entries that you might enjoy if you're a wheelgun fan. Please take a look and let us know what you think. The approved link is in the Website References subforum.

Thanks!
Mike
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Jim Higginbotham Posted - September 17 2018 : 11:47:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ten Driver

It's not just a pistol phenomenon. In the recent Fifth Third Bank Center shooting in Cincinnatti, one of the officers got a stoppage after the first round in his patrol rifle, and went to the handgun backup.

I'm curious about the .40 incident you mentioned. When the light, 165 grain loads were just becoming popular, there were several notable incidents where stoppages occurred, because the loads didn't have enough surplus energy to overcome weak shooting platforms. Makes me curious which loads were being used in the incident you quoted.

Mike



Oddly enough, the load used was 165 Gold Dot (the full power load that hits 1100+).

One of the officers I think was trying to fire his gun under his arm to the rear while fending off blows from the subject who was beating him with a handgun (that apparently malfunctioned as well).

Not sure about the other stoppage but it came early on and was cleared fairly quickly. The wounded officer got two hits the unwounded one 11 hits - including the head shot that finished the ordeal.

Jim.
Ace Posted - September 17 2018 : 09:58:36 AM
I have a theory regarding the too-high percentages of malfunctions in LEO hands; it goes like this:

Nowadays, a large percentage of the young(er) officers out there simply aren't 'gun people', and the sidearm is basically just another thing hanging on the belt. For whatever reason, many don't realize that it the primary piece of equipment that MUST work when it's needed; a pen running out of ink, or a misspelled word in a report can be fixed 'at leisure', but if the gun comes into play, it's life or death. Since it's just another hangy down thing on the belt, though, it won't get cleaned and maintained any more than the handcuff case or the---well, whatever. Not to mention, if he/she isn't a 'gun guy/gal', there won't likely be much practicing and training beyond what the agency requires--and even then, who knows how much attention they pay during those sessions?
Even back in the 80's and 90's, when I was doing it, there were too many who only shot their weapon at qualification time, and then some would just reload, stick it in the holster and off they go. Some who did clean the weapon after quals had to have a refresher on stripping it down and where to put the oil.

I base this on the fact that so many 'gun guys' will use ours on a frequent basis, sometimes hundreds of rounds at a time, our guns may be identical or nearly so to the LEO's, yet we very seldom have malfunctions (note I said 'very seldom', not 'never').

Anyway, with the posts about LEO weapon malfs, that's what came to mind. I could be wrong, I was that one other time. Now I'm going to work--with a clean and fairly frequently shot .44Spl on the belt. Ace
Ten Driver Posted - September 16 2018 : 10:47:57 PM
It's not just a pistol phenomenon. In the recent Fifth Third Bank Center shooting in Cincinnatti, one of the officers got a stoppage after the first round in his patrol rifle, and went to the handgun backup.

I'm curious about the .40 incident you mentioned. When the light, 165 grain loads were just becoming popular, there were several notable incidents where stoppages occurred, because the loads didn't have enough surplus energy to overcome weak shooting platforms. Makes me curious which loads were being used in the incident you quoted.

Mike
Jim Higginbotham Posted - September 13 2018 : 08:25:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ten Driver

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

We are going through a period in police work (and I suspect regular self defense for regular citizens), some years old now, of the phenomenon called "First Round Stoppage"

Jim H



Jim, that's a fascinating observation, and worth greater exploration.

It seems to me that we've seen a number of issues creep into the mix since the wholesale transition to autos, and that would be another to add to the list.

Mike



I am hearing it more and more in training. I first tumbled on the phenomenon (probably belatedly) when I was looking for something entirely different and was watching some LE shooting videos.

I viewed 9 videos and realized that in 9 police shootings four of the officers experienced a stoppage early on in the fight! 45%! Now I think that was certainly just a matter of luck. I think if you reviewed 100 cases you likely would not come up with nearly that many - not even close.

Then I realized that many of the encounters where I had questioned one of the participants or a witness they had experienced a stoppage - one, which involved 13 hits from two officers, both officers had experienced a stoppage in their .40 caliber pistols during the shooting.

BTW 12 good hits (5 heart hits) in that incident failed but the 13th, a head shot, worked. I know one of the officers, he is a firearms instructor for a large PD and a great shot!

The subject was likely both crazy and on drugs. He was not a big guy. He severely injured one officer even after being shot (during the time it took to clear the stoppages).

Jim H.



Ten Driver Posted - September 11 2018 : 02:19:38 AM
Bill, thanks for your kind words. I really am impressed with the K6s overall, but there are certainly areas that still need to be tweaked a bit. The good news is that grips and sights are easy fixes.

I'm reminded that S&W and Colt have had their own share of firing pin issues through the years, so it's not unheard of, but it was disappointing nonetheless. With such a small sample, I'm hesitant to make any sweeping generalizations yet. The guns I've worked with have been rock solid, and I have no reason to believe that's not representative of the entire production, minus a few outliers.

Rest assured, I've got direct communications with Kimber, and they're getting the feedback.

Mike
Ten Driver Posted - September 11 2018 : 02:18:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

We are going through a period in police work (and I suspect regular self defense for regular citizens), some years old now, of the phenomenon called "First Round Stoppage"

Jim H



Jim, that's a fascinating observation, and worth greater exploration.

It seems to me that we've seen a number of issues creep into the mix since the wholesale transition to autos, and that would be another to add to the list.

Mike
Ten Driver Posted - September 11 2018 : 01:55:18 AM
Bill, thanks for your kind words. I really am impressed with the K6s overall, but there are certainly areas that still need to be tweaked a bit. The good news is that grips and sights are easy fixes.

I'm reminded that S&W and Colt have had their own share of firing pin issues through the years, so it's not unheard of, but it was disappointing nonetheless. With such a small sample, I'm hesitant to make any sweeping generalizations yet. The guns I've worked with have been rock solid, and I have no reason to believe that's not representative of the entire production, minus a few outliers.

Rest assured, I've got direct communications with Kimber, and they're getting the feedback.

Mike
Ace Posted - September 10 2018 : 09:50:15 AM
Jim, I like the 5-5-5 numbers better than 3-3-3. Gives me more time to catch up. Ace
LittleBill Posted - September 10 2018 : 09:24:17 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

As an afterthought... the first time your currently 'COOL" pint-sized .380 or 9mm goes 'click' instead of 'bang' in a Code Red situation... you might wish you had one of those "old fangling wheelie guns instead of what the 'gun rags' told you to buy.

Just my thoughts. They're free... so they're worth every penny you paid for them



When I was about 12 I fondled my Uncle's duty gun - a 5" S&W .357 (it was likely a "pre-27" but I had no idea of such at the time).

It was "love at first sight" and I lusted after one for years before I found one, though I did go through a number of .357 revolvers through the years.

I was a fairly early convert to the 1911 as a duty gun and have carried one (with a couple of interruptions due to regulations) since the early 1970s. It is no secret I think they are one of the best options I can carry - so much that I still carry two, after retirement (with exceptions for hunting season, when I substitute a revolver for one of them).

I said that to say this: I emphatically disagree that revolvers are "obsolete" for self defense.

We are going through a period in police work (and I suspect regular self defense for regular citizens), some years old now, of the phenomenon called "First Round Stoppage" (some call it second round stoppage since most often the first round does go off - I'll not quibble on the details). Point is many police officers (the % might be higher than you think!) only get one round off and their snazzy auto chokes! This has happened to some very knowledgeable, very good shot, L.E. firearms instructors!

I can articulate nearly all of the advantages of autos (higher capacity not being the top of the list) but that still does not make revolvers useless for 99% of circumstances we might run into.

To be sure, I'm not too fond of modern revolvers (or autos for that matter) but that might be a matter of tastes. I still think guns (all guns) need a real track record and I'm not impressed with modern manufacturing - they seem to be going down the road of cheapening the process and then fixing problems as they show up - alas the first problem you have with a handgun might be your last.

Just Ramblin'

Jim H.

PS: about 4 weeks from now my BUG, which is a 1911, will be replaced with an N-frame S&W in .44 or .45 caliber for the duration of the cold months.


“Double your money back! if a defect in this firearm results in death or severe bodily injury to you or a loved one. (Normal restrictions apply).”

Jim Higginbotham Posted - September 10 2018 : 09:23:45 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

Gun owners are enamored and gun banners are horrified that a semiautomatic pistol fires a shot with every pull of the trigger. Aside from the mechanical means by which that is accomplished I'm hard pressed to see the effective difference between a single stack autopistol and a 6-7-8 shot double action revolver.

Jeff



I agree Jeff (as a guy who's carried an auto well over half the years I've been alive).

The "experts" (I'm not running them down as in this case I believe they are right) tell us that the "typical" lethal encounter is decided at under 3 yards, under 3 seconds and about 3 rounds fired.

Being familiar with statistics, I'm not about to stake my life on "odds" but still admit that those are indeed fairly typical.

I do know of instances when none of those situations apply. They are uncommon. Then again, I try to prepared for the uncommon, but the least of my worries is how many bullets my gun holds (says the guy who carries 50 rounds on him in the big city - that was not a choice of exact number; it just worked out that way).

For my current lifestyle and environment, I'd pick a 5 shot .44 or .45 over an 18 shot 9mm any day - but everyone's mileage varies, if I lived in a bad part of a big city (or drove through there) it might be an 18 shot 10mm or 16 shot .45 (both of which I own as well - and are as concealable as my 18 shot 9mms, and I shoot them about 25 % better).

Jim H.
LittleBill Posted - September 10 2018 : 09:16:18 AM
Excellent follow-up to your first review, Mike. Thanks!

The firing pin issue is unfortunate, but hopefully an anomoly and not a design defect. In any case, snap caps are in order, just in case.

Too bad too about the sight-regulation problems. It is surprising that Kimber— having done so much else right on this gun— dropped the ball on that one.

If any of you Kimber folks are reading this: you could make it up to us by offering a selection of front sights of various heights, correlated to various commonly-carried loads. And while you’re at it, maybe some speedloader-friendly grips?

I was happy to learn of your highly-favorable overrall impression of the K6. It gives me hope that— far from becoming extinct— revolvers are evolving along with the rest of the world!

I do hope the folks at Kimber are receiving the benefit of your observations. Perhaps via Mr. Cunningham?

Jim Higginbotham Posted - September 10 2018 : 09:13:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

As an afterthought... the first time your currently 'COOL" pint-sized .380 or 9mm goes 'click' instead of 'bang' in a Code Red situation... you might wish you had one of those "old fangling wheelie guns instead of what the 'gun rags' told you to buy.

Just my thoughts. They're free... so they're worth every penny you paid for them



When I was about 12 I fondled my Uncle's duty gun - a 5" S&W .357 (it was likely a "pre-27" but I had no idea of such at the time).

It was "love at first sight" and I lusted after one for years before I found one, though I did go through a number of .357 revolvers through the years.

I was a fairly early convert to the 1911 as a duty gun and have carried one (with a couple of interruptions due to regulations) since the early 1970s. It is no secret I think they are one of the best options I can carry - so much that I still carry two, after retirement (with exceptions for hunting season, when I substitute a revolver for one of them).

I said that to say this: I emphatically disagree that revolvers are "obsolete" for self defense.

We are going through a period in police work (and I suspect regular self defense for regular citizens), some years old now, of the phenomenon called "First Round Stoppage" (some call it second round stoppage since most often the first round does go off - I'll not quibble on the details). Point is many police officers (the % might be higher than you think!) only get one round off and their snazzy auto chokes! This has happened to some very knowledgeable, very good shot, L.E. firearms instructors!

I can articulate nearly all of the advantages of autos (higher capacity not being the top of the list) but that still does not make revolvers useless for 99% of circumstances we might run into.

To be sure, I'm not too fond of modern revolvers (or autos for that matter) but that might be a matter of tastes. I still think guns (all guns) need a real track record and I'm not impressed with modern manufacturing - they seem to be going down the road of cheapening the process and then fixing problems as they show up - alas the first problem you have with a handgun might be your last.

Just Ramblin'

Jim H.

PS: about 4 weeks from now my BUG, which is a 1911, will be replaced with an N-frame S&W in .44 or .45 caliber for the duration of the cold months.
Ten Driver Posted - September 10 2018 : 02:22:20 AM
My field report on the Kimber K6s is posted.

Spoiler Alert: Something broke!
Ten Driver Posted - September 10 2018 : 02:20:22 AM
Jeez Bill, that stuff was supposed to be a secret!



The "Ten" referenced is indeed the Mighty Three Holer, the KC-10. She's a beautiful airplane and extremely capable. She was a pleasure to fly.

The A-10 is a great plane too, but I prefer an airplane with an airspeed indicator, instead of a calendar. The Hog is the only airplane I've ever seen that took birdstrikes from behind. Ha!

When we dragged them across the pond, we hovered on the edge of a stall with our flaps down and our nose pointed at the heavens, and they still struggled to get on the boom at 200 knots. It was worse in the mountains of Afghanistan, when they had a war load. If the AF had a clue, they'd put some more powerful motors in those things. It's a great CAS aircraft, but it needs more juice.

Those guys do the Lord's work every day over there. God bless 'em all.

Mike
Ace Posted - September 03 2018 : 9:24:21 PM
Maybe it's the Chevy S10? Ace
jle3030 Posted - September 03 2018 : 7:54:27 PM
I think I read where it was the KC10 tanker, but I could be misremembering.

JLE
Chris Christian Posted - September 03 2018 : 3:49:47 PM
I wonder if his 'handle' ... "Ten Driver" .. refers to the A-10 Warthog. Grunts on the ground loved that air frame... kept a lot of them alive when 'stuff happened'.
LittleBill Posted - September 03 2018 : 2:59:07 PM
Copied from the PoliceOne website. I wasn’t aware of Ten Driver’s distinguished career and credentials:

Lieutenant Colonel (ret.) Mike Wood is the son of a 30-year California Highway Patrolman and the author of Newhall Shooting: A Tactical Analysis, the highly-acclaimed study of the 1970 California Highway Patrol gunfight in Newhall, California. The book is available in paper and electronic formats.... Please visit the official website for this book at newhallshooting dot com for more information.

Mike is an Honor Graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, a graduate of the U.S. Army Airborne School, and a retired U.S. Air Force Lieutenant Colonel with over 26 years of service. Mike retired as a Command Pilot, with more than 4,500 hours in aircraft ranging from fighters to tankers, and flew more than 550 combat hours over Afghanistan and Iraq. He’s the recipient of the Meritorious Service Medal (3), Air Medal (5), and Aerial Achievement Medal (3), and was recognized as the U.S. Air Force Air Mobility Command Flying Instructor of the Year in 2000.

Mike is a lifelong shooter, a student of self-defense, an active firearms instructor with certifications from the National Rifle Association (NRA) Law Enforcement Division, and a featured speaker for law enforcement agencies and associations. He is the Senior Editor at RevolverGuy.com, and was a contributor at American Cop Magazine and Police Marksman Magazine
[edited to add: ‘and is a member in good standing of that highly-prestigious website, StoppingPower.net.’] Mike enjoys sharing and applying the lessons from his training, military and aviation experience with the law enforcement community, and is grateful for all that he has learned from them in return. Mike is a member of the PoliceOne Editorial Advisory Board.

revjen45 Posted - August 20 2018 : 1:17:27 PM
Due to arthritis in my lower back I find it painful to carry a real gun, and thus must be satisfied with a .38 snubbie around the house. I suppose I could buy another gun specifically for that, but it's hard to justify spending the $. Out in the Real World I can carry something more effective since it's not all the time. Revolvulators still have a place, and I would love to try the new Kimber even if it ain't in the cards to drop $1100 on a new sidearm.
Ten Driver Posted - August 18 2018 : 6:08:00 PM
Please check out RG for a review of Chuck Haggard's Practical Revolvers class. You guys know Chuck from these pages, and it sounds like he really put on a super class this past week. My RG partner had nothing but great things to say about it.

Mike
LittleBill Posted - July 22 2018 : 09:09:52 AM
I’m guessing it must have required quite an investment on Kimber’s part to tool up for making the K6; so they must have come to the conclusion that there’s still an ongoing market for wheelguns.

I wonder how they’re selling..... ?

Ten Driver Posted - July 22 2018 : 12:50:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

I've mentioned a few times in conversations about the new Kimber wheelie that I'm not sure what it does better than a S&W or Ruger; response is usually something like 'Yeah, but it's a Kimber!'



Having worked with one extensively, I'd say the biggies are:

1. 6 rounds, in the same size;
2. MUCH better sights;
3. Better trigger, out of the box.

They're too young to declare anything about long term durability yet, but my impression is that these guns are well made--better than some of the 1911s bearing the same marque, in fact.

I love the S&W and Ruger products too. They all offer their own set of advantages, but the Kimber guns are worth serious consideration.

Mike
Ten Driver Posted - July 22 2018 : 12:42:01 AM
Thanks for the thoughts Chris, I think you're onto something.

What I'm finding with this RevolverGuy thing is that there's a surprising number of . . . ahem . . . younger shooters who are attracted to revolvers too. These folks grew up with all the plastic fantastic, and some of them are bored with it and looking for something new (at least to them) and interesting. Revolvers are so inherently fun that they're attractive to just about everybody.

My partner-in-crime at RG is on the back end of the Gen X spectrum and I'm on the front end, so that puts both of us somewhere in the middle of the pack. Our readers run the gamut from Millenials to Boomers. All of us are united in our love for these great guns, which are far from being dead or obsolete, as Chris ably noted!

Long live the round gun!

Mike
Ace Posted - July 21 2018 : 10:40:36 PM
Well, the revolver is rounder, the semi is flatter.... Ace
jle3030 Posted - July 21 2018 : 9:02:49 PM
Gun owners are enamored and gun banners are horrified that a semiautomatic pistol fires a shot with every pull of the trigger. Aside from the mechanical means by which that is accomplished I'm hard pressed to see the effective difference between a single stack autopistol and a 6-7-8 shot double action revolver.

Jeff

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