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jle3030 Posted - July 02 2016 : 09:11:43 AM
With all the current buzz about reinventing the 1911 as a 9mm, why not just go with a Browning Hi Power?

This from a guy who has been a huge 1911 fan since 1968.

Jeff

21   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Jim Higginbotham Posted - October 05 2016 : 11:18:45 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ace

Has anyone tried the RIA .22TCM? With the proprietary .22 barrel, it also comes with a spring and barrel to switch over to 9mm; same magazine (double- or single-stack option); 1911-style platform; .22LR conversion kit is available; not a bad price, especially to get a 2-in-1 gun. We've sold three, I think, in the last year or so, and reports we've gotten back is that they have functioned just fine, in both loadings; and it seems coyotes hate the TCM load.

Just something to check out, for those looking for a 1911-style 9mm. Ace



I missed this one too. Yeah, I have one of those. I've never shot the 9mm barrel. Comes with two magazines (one for each caliber and they look different but both work with the .22 TCM). Mine is an 18 shooter.

I did a side by side test with the TCM pistol and an FN Pistol and 16" carbine with both "civilian" and Law Enforcement ammo - the 5" .22 TCM will match the 16" carbine in 5.7X28 with L.E. ammo

I can't think of anything either cartridge is good for except small vermin but it is cute.

I can't think of anything my .22 Jet or .256 Ruger Hawkeye are good for either but I enjoy having them

I get 2100 fps from the 40 grain factory. Patrick Sweeney (good friend) says his gets about 1950 - could be different chronos, different weather or different barrels.

Jim
Chris Christian Posted - August 24 2016 : 10:15:03 AM
No argument there. My G29 (Gen 1, not the current problematic offering)tosses 10mm 175 Silvertips at 1250 fps, and carries 15 of them with the G20 mags. Expansion is serious! My M&P .45 tosses the Fed 230 HST+P somewhere around 950 fps and routinely expands to .75 -.80... awesome performance! But, for EDC it only carries 9 or 10.

My M&P 9c totes 17 124 Gold Dot +P... conceals under a tee shirt, and shoots beautifully.... I seem to wind up carrying that more often than the other two. First Rule? Have a gun!
Jim Higginbotham Posted - August 24 2016 : 09:18:50 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian
<snippage>

I accept the fact that the 'One Shot Stop' is a desirable goal, but not a guarantee with any load. I can live with accurately-applied multiple 9mm rounds with current state-of-the-art JHP loads. And, if I need more, my 17 round mags provide them with just the flick of the trigger finger.



Chris;

I must have been asleep at the switch as I just saw this from over a month ago - apologies.

I don't totally disagree with any of that.

I do feel however that the improvements in bullets actually improve the bigger bores to an even higher level than the smaller bores (perhaps it has something to do with the cavities) - but in actually flesh I find the typical 9mm will expand to maybe .50 caliber (I've seen exactly two .35 bullets go to .64" - one a 147 9mm and one a 158 .38 Special). I've seen 10mms go to .70 Caliber and I'v seen .45s typically go to .75 to .80 caliber (I've seen one go to .90 and one that went to exactly 1" in flesh but those are as rare as the .64" 9mm)

I sorta feel that nothing works quickly enough with hits to the lungs or heart so the more blood I can leak out with each bullet the faster the threat ceases.

That said, way too many variables to predict what is going to happen - it is largely a roll of the dice - I just want my dice as "loaded" as I can get them

Placement and adequate penetration are still the key - all our discussion of effectiveness is probably just "gilding the Lilly"

Jim H.
gauchobill Posted - August 22 2016 : 10:46:59 AM
I have owned and shot 1911s. They are inherently accurate and for that I like them. I never could acclimate to carrying "cocked and locked" so I traded my way out of 1911s. I tried many other .45s but now own just two---Beretta PX4s. Shooting any .45s nowadays is a painful experience for me due to an old series of thumb injuries on my right hand, although the Berettas are the least painful to shoot, and I suppose that can be attributed to ergonomics between my right hand and the gun.

I have witnessed failure to stop with a Thompson that put three rounds into center mass and the shootee survived the experience. So I'm not impressed that much with the storied .45acp.
It was a great innovation in the year 1911, but for my money there are better options out there today.


bandaidman Posted - August 22 2016 : 01:05:42 AM
Back when I was just starting my nursing career still being a student, I was working overtime and had "gun" money. I had a model 28 as my first handgun (wish I still had it) but reading CV all the current magazines, Col. Cooper, and others said that you weren't safe unless you were carrying a 1911. The manager of the LGS was my neighbor and told about a Stainless steel 1911 an AMT Hard baller, used price was right if I remember correctly serial number was xxx125 shot it a bunch it even shot Speer flying ashtray 200gr. But then while standing at the gun counter a few weeks later a guy came in wanting to get rid of a High Power saying it wouldn't shoot. I picked it up for 200 And found that the gun shot fine. Had them both for about a year, and when the itch for something new came along I figured that I had a revolver,and only could afford one pistol. Since I shot both well it came down to what felt the best in my hands. The AMT was traded for a Contender which was then traded for a 8 3/8" K22. I've never felt the need to get another 1911 of any caliber. My 45's are double stack the closest I came to getting a1911 was looking for a Para-Ordance P13. Until I found that they were hard to get reliable.
Ace Posted - August 21 2016 : 8:46:54 PM
Has anyone tried the RIA .22TCM? With the proprietary .22 barrel, it also comes with a spring and barrel to switch over to 9mm; same magazine (double- or single-stack option); 1911-style platform; .22LR conversion kit is available; not a bad price, especially to get a 2-in-1 gun. We've sold three, I think, in the last year or so, and reports we've gotten back is that they have functioned just fine, in both loadings; and it seems coyotes hate the TCM load.

Just something to check out, for those looking for a 1911-style 9mm. Ace
michael t Posted - August 21 2016 : 7:57:53 PM
I carry my 1951 9mm Colt Commander now and then. It carries easy and I don't have any problem with accuracy for a SD gun . It isn't a 45 But I think will do fine with good SD ammo.
jle3030 Posted - July 04 2016 : 5:16:38 PM
I've always kinda believed that if God had meant for the 1911 to be a 9mm he'd have had Georg Luger invent it.

Seriously, I love the 1911 in .45, but carry mostly 9mm because of the size/weight/comfort factors. "They" say 9mm is now as good as the .45. Because it really is? Or because most people can score more hits to close the power gap or more likely score better hits?? Because all handgun rounds are feeble anyway?

I know that it's not "humane" to shoot larger, tougher animals with 9mm, (Jim says over about 10-15 lb.- And he's shot a lot of critters.)But .45 is relatively OK for bigger animals and more power yet is even better. But then "animals are not human". Because they have no "quit" switch, where many humans do, but some really really don't? We're all flesh, blood and bone.

Kinetic energy doesn't stop any more. Neither does momentum. They used to. Or we sure thought they did. Now it's all about tissue damage and bleeding and "one wound track looks about like another" and "you're going to need more than one shot anyway".

I dunno. As a mostly retired healthcare professional I recall that bigger cuts and holes bled more than smaller ones. So if it's only all about blood loss... On the shooting range, I see the 9mm topple steel plates. The .45 just flat out flattens'em. Ditto the pepper poppers, that may have to be reset to fall with 9mm hits. And plinking random targets of opportunity. Do they all react the same, whatever caliber we hit them with? When did that stop mattering?

But here we go down THAT road again, so I'll just shut up You'll find my picture in the dictionary next to "cognitive dissonance".

Suffice to say that I'll keep and carry my Sigs and Glocks in 9mm, but I believe the 1911's will always be .45's.

Jeff
Chris Christian Posted - July 04 2016 : 2:50:59 PM
Shoot early.. shoot often... and keep shooting until things are settled down to where you can breath a big sigh of relief and sling, or holster, your "shoot often" gun

There is no true "magic bullet".... although I do have to note that the M2 .50 cal Browning... or a 40mm M79 projectile... do tend to have that "one shot stop" authority.

But, they are tough to carry concealed
gw Posted - July 04 2016 : 1:30:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

I would favor the Hi-Power over a 9mm 1911. The P35 was designed for 9mm, the 1911 wasn't. Many years ago in 'the Nam' I managed to acquire an Australian army-issue Hi-Power and much preferred it over the Navy issue 1911 .45 ACP... more rounds, easier to shoot. Time hasn't changed my opinion on the 1911.... in any caliber. They all seem to point ridiculously low for me. So much so that I don't even own a 1911.




I have a good friend, a retired Col. that did his own "study" one night in Vietnam when an artillery position he was inspecting was overrun by NVA - he only brought his 1911 and 3 magazines. He killed about 12 NVA from a fighting hole he shared with the Battery Commander (it was pitch dark so the range was pretty close before he could see them). The commander happened to have a Browning and loaned it to him as he was hitting about everything he shot at.

The first, and fortunately last, enemy to come at them he shot 6 times before he went down. Next morning he went out to examine the body because he thought he might have shot poorly with the strange gun. He found the guy had 6 hits you could cover with your hand in the high chest and he only weighed about 90 lbs.

Jim H.



Jim, that 6 shot incident might have turned out differently if the good Col. wasn't stuck with FMJ RN 9mm loads. That was a drawback during my time (although they would certainly penetrate more than far enough to bust a spine).

JHP design in 9mm (along with other calibers) has come a long way since 'The Nam'. The World has changed.

I was attacked in my backyard by a 'known neighborhood problem' pit bull a few years back. I fell on my butt backing up... drew a CZ 85B... and fired one round into the skull at about three feet and at a slight downward angle on the 65 pound bit bull... with a HST 124 +P 9mm.

The dog dropped in it's tracks. I didn't autopsy ... just the "Three S's". But I did take a quick look at the exit wound. The penetration measured about 16-inches and the blood under the exit wound indicated a liver hit. So, that bullet penetrated skull (on a straight line) then through lungs, and some paunch, and through the liver, and exited into the 'Great Unknown."

9mm performance has come a long way since my days as a Special Boat Unit crewman in 'The Nam'.

I accept the fact that the 'One Shot Stop' is a desirable goal, but not a guarantee with any load. I can live with accurately-applied multiple 9mm rounds with current state-of-the-art JHP loads. And, if I need more, my 17 round mags provide them with just the flick of the trigger finger.



I got a story about a pumped up Iraqi with a big knife that sucked up 8 rounds of .45 ball and a double charge of buck shot who was still fighting when they finally pinned him down.

A buddy stepped in front of a car that refused to stop at a roadblock, got knocked about 10 foot onto his butt got up, yanked the driver out of the car,and put him on the ground.

Some guys are just hard to put down.....
Chris Christian Posted - July 04 2016 : 12:50:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Higginbotham

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

I would favor the Hi-Power over a 9mm 1911. The P35 was designed for 9mm, the 1911 wasn't. Many years ago in 'the Nam' I managed to acquire an Australian army-issue Hi-Power and much preferred it over the Navy issue 1911 .45 ACP... more rounds, easier to shoot. Time hasn't changed my opinion on the 1911.... in any caliber. They all seem to point ridiculously low for me. So much so that I don't even own a 1911.




I have a good friend, a retired Col. that did his own "study" one night in Vietnam when an artillery position he was inspecting was overrun by NVA - he only brought his 1911 and 3 magazines. He killed about 12 NVA from a fighting hole he shared with the Battery Commander (it was pitch dark so the range was pretty close before he could see them). The commander happened to have a Browning and loaned it to him as he was hitting about everything he shot at.

The first, and fortunately last, enemy to come at them he shot 6 times before he went down. Next morning he went out to examine the body because he thought he might have shot poorly with the strange gun. He found the guy had 6 hits you could cover with your hand in the high chest and he only weighed about 90 lbs.

Jim H.



Jim, that 6 shot incident might have turned out differently if the good Col. wasn't stuck with FMJ RN 9mm loads. That was a drawback during my time (although they would certainly penetrate more than far enough to bust a spine).

JHP design in 9mm (along with other calibers) has come a long way since 'The Nam'. The World has changed.

I was attacked in my backyard by a 'known neighborhood problem' pit bull a few years back. I fell on my butt backing up... drew a CZ 85B... and fired one round into the skull at about three feet and at a slight downward angle on the 65 pound bit bull... with a HST 124 +P 9mm.

The dog dropped in it's tracks. I didn't autopsy ... just the "Three S's". But I did take a quick look at the exit wound. The penetration measured about 16-inches and the blood under the exit wound indicated a liver hit. So, that bullet penetrated skull (on a straight line) then through lungs, and some paunch, and through the liver, and exited into the 'Great Unknown."

9mm performance has come a long way since my days as a Special Boat Unit crewman in 'The Nam'.

I accept the fact that the 'One Shot Stop' is a desirable goal, but not a guarantee with any load. I can live with accurately-applied multiple 9mm rounds with current state-of-the-art JHP loads. And, if I need more, my 17 round mags provide them with just the flick of the trigger finger.
840 Posted - July 04 2016 : 11:43:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030
With all the current buzz about reinventing the 1911 as a 9mm, why not just go with a Browning Hi Power?
BHP is different from a 1911 so I wouldn't single it out.

There have been/are 1911's in 9mm, but I haven't owned or fired one. I have, however, heard they tend to have more feeding and reliability hick-ups than those in .45 ACP.

As for having a 9mm pistol that is comfortable in the hand and shoots with a nice feel like we might get with a 1911, I have that in my Sig Sauer 2022 FDE which has a grip angle close to that of the 1911, and fits my stubbier hands better than most of the competitor's models, feeling as comfortable as my 1911.

I don't think we need to single out the Browning HP to find a 9mm pistol that isn't a 1911, we can either get a 1911 or just find something we like better in the 9mm caliber.


quote:
Originally posted by jle3030
This from a guy who has been a huge 1911 fan since 1968.
I, too, have been attracted to the 1911 pistol design since the mid-'60s and used to carry a Combat Commander on and off duty, or as a civilian. Of ALL .45 ACP chambered handguns, I have never found one I liked to match the 1911 feel and performance.

'840'
Jim Higginbotham Posted - July 04 2016 : 11:06:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Christian

I would favor the Hi-Power over a 9mm 1911. The P35 was designed for 9mm, the 1911 wasn't. Many years ago in 'the Nam' I managed to acquire an Australian army-issue Hi-Power and much preferred it over the Navy issue 1911 .45 ACP... more rounds, easier to shoot. Time hasn't changed my opinion on the 1911.... in any caliber. They all seem to point ridiculously low for me. So much so that I don't even own a 1911.



I'm a 1911 guy and probably always be (since I had like 50 years to try everything else out there).

Having said that, I have this P-35 MkIII that was an Israeli issue pistol. The wood stocks on it were a bit blocky and dinged up so I started sanding on them. Somehow I got lucky and ended up with the best feeling/pointing pistol that I own.

I almost wish I could live with 9mm for carry it is so neat.

I have a good friend, a retired Col. that did his own "study" one night in Vietnam when an artillery position he was inspecting was overrun by NVA - he only brought his 1911 and 3 magazines. He killed about 12 NVA from a fighting hole he shared with the Battery Commander (it was pitch dark so the range was pretty close before he could see them). The commander happened to have a Browning and loaned it to him as he was hitting about everything he shot at.

The first, and fortunately last, enemy to come at them he shot 6 times before he went down. Next morning he went out to examine the body because he thought he might have shot poorly with the strange gun. He found the guy had 6 hits you could cover with your hand in the high chest and he only weighed about 90 lbs.

I do have a Browning that feels almost as good with some aftermarket stocks but they are flatter and don't fit my hand as well. This particular gun has a barrel in .356 TSW (Corbon's Gold dot load - no longer made but I found a few hundred rounds - pushes a 125 at 1500 fps from that gun! and Federal 135 Hydra shoks push 1270 fps) - but that is still not a load I would stake my life on (no flak to those who would...we all have to work out our own salvation).

That gun also has a barrel for .30 Luger which is sorta cute but of no real practical purpose (I do have a case of .30 Luger 73 gr JHP ammo though).

I have a couple of Brownings in .40 but the slide is as thick as a 1911 and I think the .40 does about half the damage of a .45 (but twice as much as a 9mm) so I don't carry that either - I did carry one of them as a BUG for a few years.

Of course damage only matters if you miss the CNS - anything that penetrates well enough will work if you hit the spine or the brain - I might try for that but I don't expect to be perfect every time.

Neat thing about a Browning is that it is exactly as tall as a Colt Officers or a Glock 23 and the barrel is almost the perfect length unlike the other two (I do like an Officers frame with a 4.25" Commander slide however).

I recall Marty Hayes once carried a Glock 22 that had the frame cut to take G-23 mags - same idea. Pretty neat.

Just Ramblin'

Jim H.
gw Posted - July 03 2016 : 08:28:01 AM
The LW Commander was originally designed around the 9mm, it was the first 9mm handgun of any type built in the United States.

It's still one of the handiest accurate 9mms made and nice to carry, thin and light.

Compared to some of the double stack polymer 9mms, it fairly compact.
Bill D Posted - July 03 2016 : 05:34:49 AM
I have both, Hi-Powers in 9mm and 1911's in .45. I find the trigger in the HP to have a different feel then the 1911. Problem is both are fine shooters for me. The ergonomics of the 1911, especially the solid trigger sliding straight back are totally different then the hanging hook style of the Hi-Power and most automatics seen today. I find that a CZ75 Compact/or clone easier to carry then a HP but has the same feel as a HP. The thing to me is the 1911 was designed for the .45 ACP round/.38 Super and the HP for 9mm. Both are well thought out JB(HP finished by D.S.) designs and function good so I like to stick with the caliber they where made to shoot. Tuning them makes them pretty flawless and very reliable3 systems.....Bill
Ace Posted - July 02 2016 : 9:08:05 PM
I've handled some HiPowers, like the feel, but haven't gotten to shoot one yet. I do like the 1911 platform a lot, and I like 9mm OK enough to carry the caliber a lot, but in my mind a 1911 is supposed to be .45acp.
If somebody were to give me a HiPower (hint hint), I bet I could learn to like it. Ace
Malcolm Posted - July 02 2016 : 9:06:36 PM
At present I DO have a great affinity for both my BHP, as well as my 1911 in .45 ACP.
To my subjective view point, it's a bit like having one of your children (or grandchildren) asking you to name a favorite! Haven't done THAT yet....and won't.
gw Posted - July 02 2016 : 4:08:04 PM
Six of one yada yada yada

But I like the LW Commander more better than the High Power, fits my hand better, always liked a1911 better in any caliper.
Chris Christian Posted - July 02 2016 : 12:00:37 PM
I would favor the Hi-Power over a 9mm 1911. The P35 was designed for 9mm, the 1911 wasn't. Many years ago in 'the Nam' I managed to acquire an Australian army-issue Hi-Power and much preferred it over the Navy issue 1911 .45 ACP... more rounds, easier to shoot. Time hasn't changed my opinion on the 1911.... in any caliber. They all seem to point ridiculously low for me. So much so that I don't even own a 1911.
Jim Higginbotham Posted - July 02 2016 : 11:06:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jle3030

With all the current buzz about reinventing the 1911 as a 9mm, why not just go with a Browning Hi Power?

This from a guy who has been a huge 1911 fan since 1968.

Jeff





Ditto. I have a few 1911s in 9mm, one a custom 70 series Combat Commander - Might make a good understudy to train newbies on the workings and feel of a 1911 but the Browning works better and I find it transfers just as well.

Almost all of my 1911s in 9mm have a Super .38 or 9X23 barrel also. In every case the longer cartridge is more reliable. Mind you my 9mm 1911s might be slightly less reliable than my .45's, 10mm or Super .38s but they are still as reliable as any non-1911 auto pistol I have.

Jim
Uncle Mike Posted - July 02 2016 : 10:49:36 AM
Hi, the 1911 in 9mm has been around for years. Colt had a sweet Commander in 9mm that I shot in the 70's. I think it's hype/marketing. As for the BHP it's one of my favorites. The only one I didn't like was a Practical that shot groups bigger than Elmer Keith's hat band, regards, Mike

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