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T O P I C R E V I E W
Barnacle Bill
Posted - October 24 2009 : 3:14:44 PM Context: thinking about picking up a Bersa Thunder
I've been having trouble getting the search function to work lately, so forgive me if this has been covered.
I know DPX is generally favored hereabouts, but does that extend to .380?
I did find a tread where some pre-production stuff was shot into jello, but nothing about the final product.
If not DPX, then what?
16 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Lockjaw
Posted - October 30 2009 : 12:04:09 PM
quote:Originally posted by Barnacle Bill
quote:Originally posted by Lockjaw
I am gonna disagree with you some. I have an LCP, and I found it quite accurate, considering the sights at 7 yards, and recoil was very manageable with the Blazer ammo I was shooting.
Not my intention to dis your choice (or Tony's either). I think these sorts of weapons have their place - replacing the similarly sized old school .25 autos with something more effective. The larger .380's like the Bersa might have been "pocket pistols" back in the days when men wore baggy suits made of material as thick as we'd use in an overcoat these days, but that's not going to work too well in the pockets of modern clothing (winter coats excepted). However, numerous nations have issued weapons similar to the Bersa as service pistols for uniformed military & LE personel (not endorsing, just noting). They are sort of the poor man's 9mm, especially in countries that frown on civilians having anything more powerful than a .380. So, weapons in that class seems to me better suited to the training mission I have in mind, as a part of the progression to a 9mm.
Not saying you are dis'n my choice, but I am pretty sensitive to recoil, and found the LCP just fine. Now I will say there isn't alot to hold onto.
Barnacle Bill
Posted - October 29 2009 : 3:09:31 PM
quote:Originally posted by Matthew Courtney
One of my students had a Bersa .380 that was finicky with ammo that was loaded near maximum dimensions for the .380 cartridge. The chamber on that gun was built very close to the minimum chamber dimensions, which helps make for an accurate gun. I know that most DPX rounds are on the long side, because the all copper hollow point bullet is less dense, requiring a longer bullet to have the same weight. For this reason, I would suggest the Corbon's powerball over their DPX.
That's a good tip that I'll keep in mind. I'd test anything for reliability, of course. As mentioned above, I'm also looking at Gold Dot. One online source reported 934 fps, 11.35" penitration, expansion to .49" through heavy cloth from a Walther PPK/S with 3.25" barrel (claimed original source was FBI testing). Assuming the report is true, I'd expect the Bersa's 3.5" barrel to do similarly with it, which seems pretty good for .380.
EDIT: ran into another web site reporting the following results into 10% gel through 2 layers of denim from a Kel-Tec P-3AT (2.7" barrel):
So, if DPX will feed & 11" is enough penetration (which I expect it is for non-LE civilian purposes), it looks like the pick of this litter.
Barnacle Bill
Posted - October 29 2009 : 2:56:59 PM
quote:Originally posted by Ten Driver
Hello again,
Bill, do you think the blowback-operated .380 Bersa offers significantly reduced recoil compared to a locked breech 9mm of about the same size?
The reason I ask is that I know your intention for the Bersa is as a training tool and you envision it as an intermediate step, but I'm not so sure this is the case.
That has been my assumption. I have a Kahr TP9 on hand, and I don't think it is that bad even with +P+, much less standard pressure ammo. So, you might be right. I don't really have a good way to test it until I lay hands on a .380, though, since I don't have one right now & haven't fired one in a good 15 years.
Ten Driver
Posted - October 29 2009 : 04:28:15 AM Hello again,
Bill, do you think the blowback-operated .380 Bersa offers significantly reduced recoil compared to a locked breech 9mm of about the same size?
The reason I ask is that I know your intention for the Bersa is as a training tool and you envision it as an intermediate step, but I'm not so sure this is the case.
My only experience with a .380 in the Bersa class is with the PPK and the Mauser HsC, and I don't think either of them recoils measurably less than the Kahrs and mini-Glocks in 9mm.
Since recoil is largely subjective, you might feel differently and the Bersa might indeed be an appropriate intermediate step, but in my hands I don't think it would be that way.
I'm not trying to fault your choice of the Bersa. I've heard many good things about them. I just don't think the recoil "advantage" would offset the greater difficulty and price associated with finding .380 ammo right now.
V/R Mike
Matthew Courtney
Posted - October 29 2009 : 04:18:31 AM One of my students had a Bersa .380 that was finicky with ammo that was loaded near maximum dimensions for the .380 cartridge. The chamber on that gun was built very close to the minimum chamber dimensions, which helps make for an accurate gun. I know that most DPX rounds are on the long side, because the all copper hollow point bullet is less dense, requiring a longer bullet to have the same weight. For this reason, I would suggest the Corbon's powerball over their DPX.
Barnacle Bill
Posted - October 28 2009 : 6:32:16 PM
quote:Originally posted by Lockjaw
I am gonna disagree with you some. I have an LCP, and I found it quite accurate, considering the sights at 7 yards, and recoil was very manageable with the Blazer ammo I was shooting.
Not my intention to dis your choice (or Tony's either). I think these sorts of weapons have their place - replacing the similarly sized old school .25 autos with something more effective. The larger .380's like the Bersa might have been "pocket pistols" back in the days when men wore baggy suits made of material as thick as we'd use in an overcoat these days, but that's not going to work too well in the pockets of modern clothing (winter coats excepted). However, numerous nations have issued weapons similar to the Bersa as service pistols for uniformed military & LE personel (not endorsing, just noting). They are sort of the poor man's 9mm, especially in countries that frown on civilians having anything more powerful than a .380. So, weapons in that class seems to me better suited to the training mission I have in mind, as a part of the progression to a 9mm.
TONY
Posted - October 28 2009 : 07:40:28 AM I have the Kel-Tec, if you seem me, it's in my pocket. No, it's not going to be my first choice but it's much better than an empty pocket. I shot Debbie's Bersa, I was pleasently surprised.
I think with DPX you have about as good a chance as you can get.
Don't forget the first rule of a gun fight-Have A Gun,,,
Lockjaw
Posted - October 28 2009 : 12:10:39 AM I am gonna disagree with you some. I have an LCP, and I found it quite accurate, considering the sights at 7 yards, and recoil was very manageable with the Blazer ammo I was shooting.
Barnacle Bill
Posted - October 27 2009 : 11:59:46 AM To clarify a bit...
The Bersa I'm looking at is the single-stack model, not the double stack.
The central purpose is actually a training piece for the kids, in the progression .22 => .380 => 9mm. For adult use by my wife or I, my floor would be 9mm / .38 Spl except in a BUG.
However, no matter why I buy a gun I like to have some highly effective (within context of the caliber) self-defense ammo on hand for it. Just on GP. Otherwise it's a toy not a weapon.
In this context, I think the micro .380's designed as BUG's (Kel-Tek, etc...) are too light (high recoil) and tend to have poor sights & ergonomics for my intended use. Folks seem to really like the Bersas. The other candidate is the similarly-sized Sig P232. Pro = available with factory night sights, cons $$$ & a Euro-style mag release.
TONY
Posted - October 27 2009 : 09:04:27 AM My girlfriend has a Bersa and for the size, well, it holds 15+1, it's between the size of a Glock 26 an 19.
The biggest advantage I see is that she can control this gun and hits what she shoots at. She does better with this gun than she does with her 9mm.
Ten Driver
Posted - October 27 2009 : 02:17:24 AM Hello,
The Bersa is a pretty big gun for a .380, isn't it? Why not choose a 9mm of the same relative size (Kahrs, KelTec PF9, Glock 26, etc.)? Ammo performance and availability would be superior. I'm sure the Bersa is a good gun, but it seems to me like the new subcompact 9mms have bumped the .380 out of serious consideration, except for the really small guns like LCP, P3AT, Seecamp, etc.
V/R Mike
Lockjaw
Posted - October 26 2009 : 5:52:17 PM My theory, which Evan can probably poke holes in is simply this.
Yes it may be just a 380, but getting shot with it is still gonna hurt. Getting shot with it enough will eventually kill someone. I killed a big possum with a daisy pump BB gun. I really didn't think it would kill one, but it did. Of course I had to shoot it about 20 times. But it died, and it knew it was being shot. Had it had rabies, well maybe I would have been way undergunned, but better off then having no gun at all.
I would get what you can for now, and look around for the high power stuff and buy it when you find it.
380 ammo here is pretty much "pre-sold". I troll the internet sites and look for what is in stock. I got some 9mm BPLE for 23.xx for a box of 50. I can't even get 50 cheapie hollowpoint 9mm rounds around here for that, much less +p+ ones. And they used to be one of the best 9mm loads. Ammo I have and can use is better then ammo I don't have or can't afford or a gun left at home.
Barnacle Bill
Posted - October 26 2009 : 10:52:46 AM
quote:Originally posted by Evan
we tested the preproduction because that's what we had. later chrono'd the production stuff and it was essentially the same. don't have a .380 but if I did it would be loaded with CB DPX or PowRball.
we sold several Bersa's when we had the shop-they were uniformaly superb.
Good to hear. Everybody seems to like the Thunder. I'm just holding out for an all-blue (or matte black) one.
As Lockjaw & HEMI mentioned, .380 ammo is in short supply. However, I've seen a couple places on line that appear to have .380 DPX in stock. THe other load I've actually seen (apparently) in stock is Gold Dot. Any thoughts on that?
Evan
Posted - October 26 2009 : 08:55:05 AM we tested the preproduction because that's what we had. later chrono'd the production stuff and it was essentially the same. don't have a .380 but if I did it would be loaded with CB DPX or PowRball.
we sold several Bersa's when we had the shop-they were uniformaly superb.
HEMI
Posted - October 26 2009 : 08:27:02 AM When I was in Texas earlier this month 380 was the only ammo not on the shelves. Federal 90gr hydra shoks where at one time the best in the 380. I don't know if this still rings true.
Lockjaw
Posted - October 25 2009 : 10:52:34 PM I have some buffalo bore 90 Gr +p loads that use the gold dot bullet, and also some hornady critical defense loads. I bought a box of 50 black hills 90 grains too, because finding 380 ammo is tough around here.
