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T O P I C R E V I E W
Posted - March 06 2009 : 10:29:56 PM Hello, I'm new to the forum, but have been reading the posts for quite some time.
We've all heard the caliber war debate, so I'm not trying to rehash any of that. I am just making a simple observation using data from one of Evan's books. This info was obtained on handloads.com, which says "All data taken from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition and used with permission from the author."
All of these loads are showing the same avg penetration, and expansion is very close.
These are the questions I have after looking at this data:
1. Given the above results, why the heck would there ever be a caliber war? There doesn't seem to be significant difference to warrant much disagreement. 2. I've heard people say that 9BPLE is too light (all 115gr for that matter). Given the street results, how could anyone claim that 9BPLE is outdated and a shallow penetrator? 3. Hey, I love the .45acp. I think it's awesome, and I love the 1911. But again, looking at the results above, what is there not to like about the 9mm?
I appreciate any comments/discussion.
13 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Posted - March 15 2009 : 4:18:45 PM One of the members on this site a while back told of an incident where he used the round with excellent performance to save his life. I believe he also mentioned another shooting in their agency where the shot went through a car window, then a headrest or something like that, and still did the job with good expansion.
As was alluded to in the thread about Winchester 127 +P+, the price of good ammo is crazy. I really like the Winchester load, but back when it was cheap I shot it all up. I got a bunch of this 9BPLE from Streichers recently for $17.00 a box. I think they've put it all the way up to $17.50 now. This will probably be my carry load in nine when I use up the last couple boxes of 127 +P+.
Posted - March 11 2009 : 10:21:14 PM Put me in the 125gr 357 crowd.
Posted - March 08 2009 : 8:27:30 PM If people start being born with sheet-metal type skins, maybe the 9BPLE could be considered outdated. But since people haven't changed physiologically over thousands of years, I fail to see why 9BPLE can be considered "outdated". It's got an enviable track record, still less expensive than the newest designer rounds, and since all my 9mm pistols (and one revolver so chambered) agree on it, I'll stick with it. Reliability in your particular pistol and shot placement should be your top two concerns...everything else is superfluous.
Posted - March 08 2009 : 6:09:11 PM My buddy carries .45acp, I (usually) carry 9mm. We frequently argue the 'mine is better than yours' issue. Where would the fun be if we agreed?
rdh, welcome to the site. There's a whole lot of good information here, respectfully shared. BUT, if you (I mean you personally, rdh) start using common sense in evaluating this particular subject matter, you're gonna miss a lot of enjoyable discussion. Ace
Posted - March 07 2009 : 9:26:22 PM Arvinator,
I agree, I would rather depend upon what really works than what "should" work based on theory. This is the same reason I use 357B when I carry a 357, because it has been proven to work.
On other forums I do hear the shooting through barriers debate, and how 115gr won't hold up to car doors, windshields, etc., and this is coming from people who have a CCW, not LE folks (and likewise people who probably haven't even sees a GSW before -- do they call those mall ninjas?). I can understand criteria perhaps needing to be different for LE, because a LEO is more likely to encounter situations that civilians most likely will not.
Jhiller, I like the point you made. It seems to me that the most likely scenario a civilian would encounter would not involve barriers between you and the subject. If you are shooting through car doors and windshields as a civilian, in my mind you will have some 'splaining to do as to why that was necessary versus you taking another alternative to the situation.
Posted - March 07 2009 : 5:17:48 PM Welcome to the site, you will hear from alot of folks with common sense. As far as the round discussed, I am sure some comments are from a person who never had to use a firearm in self defense, so try to stick with thoughts from someone like Evan who has been in harm's way and has discussed a few of the facts. I carry this round in my Glock 17, and I like it. I have carried other rounds, and I carry other rounds in other guns with no second thought about it. There is more than one good round, as said earlier, it's about what you choose to protect you and your loved ones. As I have read before, a handgun is handy, and there are no magic bullets, or miracle rounds. Good luck.
Posted - March 07 2009 : 3:25:30 PM Rounds that work really well on the street have one thing in common. They have muzzle energy of 400 ft pounds. Whether that is in 9mm, 40 cal or 45 cal seems to matter less if the round is able to transfer that energy to the target. Remember we aren't talking about killing people. We are trying to stop them from doing whatever they had their minds set upon. I carry 38's which are at the bottom of what I consider acceptable. That is a concession to weight and ease of concealment. I also carry 357 mag and 9mm. They both meet my personal critera . The most modern 9mm rounds may do things the 9bple cannot but that does not include excellence as an anti-personel round especially when no barriers are involved
Posted - March 07 2009 : 11:03:29 AM I would add one thing to the mix. The amount of rounds you have to fire before a reload.
I'm not talking about spraying and praying. But these days having to deal with multiple aggressors is a real possibility. Being able to deal with the situation with out a reload is a plus in my book.
Of course you can (and should) carry more than one gun. but even drawing a second gun takes time.
Posted - March 07 2009 : 09:15:17 AM Thank you for the discussion.
I find that I can shoot the 9, 40, or 45 accurately. It's just when I hear the caliber war debates and then see data like listed above, I don't understand what the issue is with bashing one caliber over the other, when the real world results show they all get the job done.
So you are saying that the 9BPLE is "too shallow" argument is stemming from lab results instead of real world performance?
Posted - March 07 2009 : 08:55:18 AM Welcome to the forum Ryan, The answer to your question is personal preference. Current testing protocols such as ballistic gelatin testing do not give an actual real-world result. All they do is provide a consistent test basis for evaluating the performance of various loads. Nothing more.
Evan's data on the other hand is taken from actual street performance and is a more reliable predictor of what load does what. A difference in a few percentage points, less than 10% I'd say, is too small to worry about. Any of the loads you listed would be acceptable.
While it is true that "bigger is better" not everyone can perform at their best with one particular caliber. The size of the weapon and how it fits the shooter's hand is a major factor. Being able to effectively control recoil in the larger calibers is also a concern, though training can fix this to some degree. I have had a number of students that initially chose a 40 or 45, only to learn that they could not shoot it accurately enough. Those same students were infinately better with a 9mm. Better to carry what you can shoot effectively.
Posted - March 07 2009 : 07:45:58 AM rdh Welcome to the fold. As for 9bple, it then and it will work now. Russ
Posted - March 07 2009 : 02:56:34 AM Just because something is old doesn't mean it won't still work.
In 9mm the 9BPLE is one of my preferred loads. It worked then, and I fail to see why it won't work now if I do my part. Of course I will have to do my part, no matter the caliber or bullet.